Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (1 Viewer)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Blood]

I honestly don't think I would have come back to the game if it wasn't for RG, MQ2, and CWTN Plugins personally I don't have much time I have a family, I work more than full-time. I think it's also important to note I am not here to vilify or shame anyone for how they chose to play the game. And I have had a lot of people approach me while I play usually I start the interactions as I offer to buff or rez people and there are a few who I have dropped a box for a group with often now but the questions are all the same to me about boxing.

1. The community all assumes we are automating our game and walking away from our keyboards. (I personally think this is the minority and Redbot, Sic and a bunch of other great people make it clear DO NOT DO THAT).
2. they all seem to think we have 60+ accounts and we take over an entire zone while AFKing away from our keyboards.
3. Or they seem to think we are a bunch of un-friendly sweaty neckbeards with no lives.

Personally, I think this is why I have been so open with the people that have asked me in-game why I Multibox. I am here trying to enjoy this content while progressing and due to my own time restrictions I choose to multi-box so I can play the content I want to play when I want to play it. I think it's important to be kind to people as it costs us nothing to be nice while potentially helping someone out on their own multi-boxing journey. and at the same time show them we are not a bunch of basement-dwelling neckbeards that want to own all the Kronos in the game as if this is some sort of measure of success.

In my short time being back the community at RG has been awesome to me and extremely helpful and super friendly and I hope that anyone asking questions about this community or multi-boxing comes here first.

 

[skaffloctz]

just wondering all you folks that have canceled multiple accounts did you tell them why? otherwise they will just think people bored of playing

Unsubed 9 accounts including a 22 year old one and filled out the feedback survey saying why - I vaguely considered posting a polite direct message to JChen on linkedin and then decided it was not appropriate. She can sink or swim based on own her decisions - in any case I took my money and walked - we shall see if the drop in user revenue matters. Will take a few quarters one way or another.

 

[Hulkman]

I am reading through the threads and everyone has great points!! BUT

I do not see anyone coming up with an actual and viable solution to the problem (or actual question mentioned by RedBot). We need a cause and effect thread In my opinion to come up what the best way understand and get around all the hassle.

 

[Sic]

I am reading through the threads and everyone has great points!! BUT

I do not see anyone coming up with an actual and viable solution to the problem (or actual question mentioned by RedBot). We need a cause and effect thread In my opinion to come up what the best way understand and get around all the hassle.

If there was an easy "one cool trick to solve all the world's woes" this would be the discussion to post it in. So if you have one, because clearly no one else has the ez 1 trick answer, please post it :p

 

[an_image]

If there was an easy "one cool trick to solve all the world's woes" this would be the discussion to post it in. So if you have one, because clearly no one else has the ez 1 trick answer, please post it :p

All crybaby bitches on every server go...

 

[Many_Whelps]

I think the only thing to do is to focus on what we can control, and that is our own software package. We want to automate, they don't want automation to be a thing, so clearly we're at an impasse in terms of negotiating with DPG any sort of acceptance. Instead, we need to focus on what we do and our own code base. Somehow they're able to distinguish when an account is running MQ and when it isn't. Maybe not in real time, maybe not the instant you try to connect to the server, but at some point, they can tell. It may only be after the fact through analyzing server side logs. It won't be as simple as "just change the process name" or something trivial like that. I'm sure that the devs here are already 30 steps beyond that.

As for the non-devs among us, you have 2 choices, either keep playing with MQ, knowing that these suspensions will continue or cancel your accounts, walk away from EQ and let them know exactly why you're leaving.

 

[Lambaster]

Are there any eqemu servers that give a close experience to the rizlona server?

 

[naamloseeen]

Are there any eqemu servers that give a close experience to the rizlona server?

It depends on what you mean by "rizlona experience".

You could look into Project Lazarus. Not only is boxing MQ supported there, but in some ways, it's expected. It's got some nifty things about it like buff bots hanging out in PoK and some other unique stuff.

However, it only goes up to Omens of War.

 

[redfox]

On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.

 

[SBS1141]

Great points raised through all of this, but we all know the risk everytime we load up. There are some at DBG that may not mind MQ when used the way most here use it but is still against the rules. they will not open themselves up for the complaints and retaliation from the players that dont use mq. they will fall back on the fact that its against the rules and let the game die i think

 

[Naeeldar]

On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.

Great post. Honestly it’s tough that so many people don’t have a CC On their account. You could make a pretty impactful statement by a time termination submission. The process sets off tickets internally they would see a noticeable uptick.

 

[Lidori]

On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.

Great post. I'm interested in the basis of your appeal. Care to share? It might help me in the future

 

[Tangtown]

Not sure how the structure is over at EG7 but would it be worth making an appeal to their Chairman of the Board and/or CEO. I know there is no way to put a solid $ figure on the amount of revenue MQ generates for DPG, but RG would at least know how many subs they have and can make some educated guesses to put it in front of the people who are watching the money at EG7.

 

[surfdog21]

As much as I hate helping to beat this dead dog to death here, since there is pretty much the same post that was moved to Fippy's....

I think myself, Sic and the deep guys here, should arrange a hang out with the devs in Carlsbad California. Hang out, drink some drink and discuss MQ and hear all they have to say and let them really get in person what this is all about.. add ons, quality of life etc., available to all. It's a win win. A no brainer. https://www.pizzaport.com/ is a good place to have a round table meeting. It's a laid back place that alot of them I am sure have been to.

 

[surfdog21]

and I will take one for the team if jen's not married dammit!

 

[an_image]

and I will take one for the team if jen's not married dammit!

be subtle @surfdog21 like this...

 

[an_image]

Hmmm...i say we respond to these DMG Mofo's in Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs

Not sure how the structure is over at EG7 but would it be worth making an appeal to their Chairman of the Board and/or CEO. I know there is no way to put a solid $ figure on the amount of revenue MQ generates for DPG, but RG would at least know how many subs they have and can make some educated guesses to put it in front of the people who are watching the money at EG7.

Well we can't...but I bet you some bean counter in Finance is at some point going to get curious and say...what the fudge...then walk over to Accendo's desk and go...about this policy...

 

[skaffloctz]

Hmmm...i say we respond to these DMG Mofo's in Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs

Well we can't...but I bet you some bean counter in Finance is at some point going to get curious and say...what the fudge...then walk over to Accendo's desk and go...about this policy...

I don't think its Accendo, I think its JChan and Woebot, and yeah the bet they are making is that the crackdown will result in more revenue because once all us automators with our multiple gold accounts are gone and Norrath is pure again, a veritable conucopia of single account users will return and bring EQ back to its past glorys days where everyone can get a group and not have to LFG for hours on end. /em roles eyes....

 

[Krujoeclipse81]

I think we as a community, need to be mindful of other players for one. if you been camping in 1 spot for several hours and someone shows up in zone offer the spot to them, maybe they are there just for a specific loot. and your there for the same reason but its just 1 guy who cant ever find groups go head let him have it. there will be more opportunity for you.

I have faith in the RG devs i think they have made wise choices over the years, even if at times they can seem rude they only have the best intentions for us.

That being said the following is something i wish DB would do.
Give us our own server i really don't care how they word it. It could be Anarchy (no gm support, transfers) I don't fully wanna suggest software scans but if the implement something like that and detect you running MQ only show this server. I wouldn't mind hanging out in a server with like minded individuals. at least we wouldn't be so worried if an account we worked hard on is going to be suspended and or ban. this way they would still generate income from us though monthly subs and or DB store. there are some in the community who box several groups at once. seems like that would be worth thinking about at least.

 

[deified]

My response to the 7 day vacation was to cancel 7 subs.

This is a hypothetical if a dev was willing to talk:
So what if, you get caught "cheating" you get your account suspended for the 7 days. But, after that your account is now cheater status, you can no longer raid current content. You cant trade until your 14 - 30 days cheater status is up, no bazaar, no trading, etc. Put all the cheaters into some kind of punishment mode that still allows you to play with friends etc (minus raid) or do your own thing that you usually do. You have quite a few limitations on your account and if you are willing to keep "cheating" you can stay in that status if you dont mind all the limitations. This all coming with your account not being banned. Just my two cents.

 

[Kar-]

Cancelled my 4 accounts today. Best way to show them they are going down the wrong path for this! If and when they relax their position on MQ then I'll be back and resub. Until then I'll continue to read these forums!

Kar

 

[Overtimer]

Was going to resub for 1 year for my 6-toon team, this month.

What they got last night were 6 accounts that were removed from resubbing.

 

[Naeeldar]

Been forever since i cancelled a sub. I seem to remember a question sheet on it. Are people putting in why when they do? When the bean counters get word and see consistencies it will escalated. And a few % points is enough to stir them up - especially on a legacy product where new customers are rare.

 

[an_image]

Been forever since i cancelled a sub. I seem to remember a question sheet on it. Are people putting in why when they do? When the bean counters get word and see consistencies it will escalated. And a few % points is enough to stir them up - especially on a legacy product where new customers are rare.

Agree with @Naeeldar best personal response you can do is to:

1. Cancel your subs and explain why in the form
2. Stop providing broader assistance to the general population (groups, mgb's, rezzes, level's, cheap bazaar pricing)
3. Jack up Krono prices to ridiculous amounts (4-5 million per) to really drive down the ability of the regular player to purchase/acquire them which in turn drives up cycle time to use...OR go the opposite route to make everything trivial/worthless so people won't buy it

The 4 servers (live) I play in are ghost towns now. Hardly anyone on general other than whining or lfg for hours. POK lag piles spamming for buffs 24/7

 

[Phalanx]

Should we be pushing for private instances of zones? Doesn’t seem likely but would probably solve a ton of problems.

 

[an_image]

Should we be pushing for private instances of zones? Doesn’t seem likely but would probably solve a ton of problems.

I agree. I also think it compounds the issues DBG is having trouble addressing which is the overall play-ability (if that's a word) of the game for single users. There's two camps (and a spectrum in between).

1. There's us who mostly want to go out there player vs. environment with our boxes (and/or a few friends)
2. There's the regular player trying to log-in and have a gaming experience.

The root cause is that #2...can't really function for most of the high-end game at all...then they see people on #1...and go like...WTF...and then us in camp #1 go to people in camp 2...whatevs dudes...enjoy camping plane of knowledge (generalization...i think most of us actually help(ed) other players a significant amount).

Hence why you're seeing the current state of affairs. The company feels the "old strategy" or MMO approach they built the platform on is at risk...when what they're reluctant to realize is that it's already dying. They could redevelop the game dynamics to appeal more to that casual or hardcore single box player at the risk of alienating us...which is the path they've chosen (at great cost i might say...I'll stick to this no matter what...one of us is worth at least 4-6 of them)

I'm sure there's other ways to slice this but that's my Wednesday soapbox story

Personally I see this all the time @ work...you've got one hardliner somewhere...wether it's code, an app, something...that listens to their own little bubble without engaging in a broader conversation...pushes a change they feel is right for everyone and slowly starts to break the world.

Tabs vs. Spaces ... woot!

 

[rdawgemfl]

I've been suspended 2 times now, the thing that frustrates me is "why".. What exactly am I doing that is cheating ? so I use the RG stuff.. Let me explain my thoughts some may or may not disagree but I feel as though I need to express this.

I've had my EQ accounts for over 20 years, I never boxed till lately. The reason is back 20 years ago I could find groups, there were always people on. I met lots of good and not so good people, but so goes life. Back then I would be in groups of 5 toons that were all from different guilds, everybody playing and cool with each other. If you did join a guild the Guild leaders (at least from my view) didn't try and force you to play a toon a certain way, meaning telling me I need to put my exp points in experience not AA's till I'm at a higher level, I understand that is how some play but I should be in charge of how I want to develop my toon and so if it takes me 5 days to fill my aa's that is me and if you decide to level first then grind for aa's that is you. I found that people would help you whether you were in their guild or not, it really didn't matter everyone just really wanted to play and obtain their personal goals.

So now I come to today, when I started replaying I would spend hours lfg's, and we all know it is a slow and lonely road soloing with one toon. I would do a who all and ask peep to join their group, I can't tell you how many people would say you're not in my guild so I can't help, or ignore me out right. So I joined a Guild and for about 2 days things were ok they would group and to get me levels, but i wanted my aa's for tradeskills so I was putting exp in aa's I was told by guild leaders that that isn't why I was bought into the guild, and if i needed something made that they have higher level toons that can make it, and that i needed to focus on leveling.

I don't know about you guys but I play my toons and develop them how I want to, I pay for the account not you or anyone else.

So this mind set has led me to boxing myself, CWTN and Sic.. thanks fellas for all your hard work and making the experience a good one for me, now I enjoy playing again.

So Daybreak really should have no problems with us boxing, it is only a win win for the company, why ? a lot of us have more than 2 or 3 accounts that we pay yearly for I myself have 6, so that's 6 hundred and more from one single person. If we stop playing this dinosaur will go extinct. Also I still have the 20 year old mind set of grouping with just about anyone you don't need to be a part of my guild, or what ever if you are good peeps I'll drop a toon and let you in my group. It's funny Firestormers for example (a guild on my server) wouldn't let me group or help me powerlevel because I wasn't in their guild. Update.. I've powerleveled 5 of there toons from 85 - 110 or so, and now they've been begging me to join their guild (and now I won't be). Some would say screw them and yes to some extent. I help people get their epic's and what not. I give shit away all the time.

I box for my development of toons I'm not making money from it, I'm not hoarding areas from people, I do a "camp check" setup and run, if peeps want an item from a "Named" I let them have it.

They should really dig into the impact we (at least myself) give to the community. I just want to play the game, get my toons leveled and not sit for hours lfg, and dealing with rude people.

So if it weren't for these tools a lot of us wouldn't be paying for 20 accounts, we wouldn't be playing at all, our accounts are revenue and revenue keeps them employed.

if you agree or disagree let me know what you think.

 

[Sum1]

I think the only thing to do is to focus on what we can control, and that is our own software package. We want to automate, they don't want automation to be a thing, so clearly we're at an impasse in terms of negotiating with DPG any sort of acceptance. Instead, we need to focus on what we do and our own code base. Somehow they're able to distinguish when an account is running MQ and when it isn't. Maybe not in real time, maybe not the instant you try to connect to the server, but at some point, they can tell. It may only be after the fact through analyzing server side logs. It won't be as simple as "just change the process name" or something trivial like that. I'm sure that the devs here are already 30 steps beyond that.

As for the non-devs among us, you have 2 choices, either keep playing with MQ, knowing that these suspensions will continue or cancel your accounts, walk away from EQ and let them know exactly why you're leaving.

They never say they don’t like automation. They simply cite third party programs that alter gameplay.

 

[an_image]

They never say they don’t like automation. They simply cite third party programs that alter gameplay.

 

[Masq]

I use to just play my main, then grouping got so bad I created a 3 man group plus mercs for a full group and would always drop mercs and pick up anyone looking for a group and even drop the other 2 if we could fill a group with all mains. At some time things changed and those that I would usually pick up that were looking for a group, would end up not wanting to group with me because I was "botting". It became almost purest vs any type of MQ user. It would cause me to be less likely to pick up random players looking for a group, as I was afraid I would be called out as a cheater. Did my time trying to put together groups without using MQ, but it just was not possible and I stopped playing for a time. Got back into the game and just kind of did my own thing, stayed away from everyone else and would always offer up any loot rotting(which there were tons of people that would always be there to pick up rot loot, but never could find them to group with). I have been hesitant to play again since getting a 7 day suspension, because I don't know what they will allow, and I'm not sure what caused them to hit me with the 7 day suspension in the first place. I do however know that there isn't anyway I could go back to constantly looking for a group again. I did however enjoy it when I had the option to play and pick up people without the threat of being called out as a cheater. Not sure if this helps with this thread, but kind of just giving my two cents on how I play and I've been playing off and on since 2000(more so on than off).

 

[Naeeldar]

i think EQ is kind of a dead end game, and maybe DPG considers it that way too. its never going to return to its glory days, and it's pointless trying to revitalize the game. its a 23 year old game with such a history and reputation that if a company is really trying to make profits, i think they're better off just making a new game.

i think the business strategy with EQ is to just break even - make just enough to keep the lights on. they dont necessarily want EQ to shut down because they can make some money from it, but they don't want the upkeep to be such a headache. it's easier to keep the lights on for 100 truebox tlp players than it is for 10,000 MQ boxing users. so to me, unsubbing is pointless - that's what DPG wants us to do. if EQ happens to die out, i dont think DPG will mind letting it die out so it can use it's resources elsewhere. (i understand this is easier said than done for me because none of my accounts were recently suspended or banned.)

So I agree about not losing our reputation. One thing I want to say however is that if they want us to quit they would ban us. Simple as that. The problem is they do want our revenue and trying to keep both parties happy.

Frankly as much as I hate it but I have one suspension every 3 months but only once - I‘d live with it. The problem right now is the inconsistency is enough to drive many to quit. Depending how frequent possibly even me. they swung the pendulum too hard. Hopefully they learn - especially in the summer months when they lose customers. Which btw is another reason TLP open in May (it offsets lulls for them in the MRR.

 

[microscope]

You could disable MQ across the whole game, let them suffer the loss of thousands of accounts. Focus on EQ Emulator which could live forever. Maybe team up and harvest more data. I think continuing to try to 'work with' DBG when they laugh in the face of players who buy multiple things and then get banned.. is like being part of an abusive relationship.

 

[Kambic]

To me it seems like there is really only one question: is Daybreak willing to sit down at the table and talk?

If not, then it kind of doesn't matter what we do, which is to say, just keep doing what we're doing and not worry about it too much. People will come and go based on how they are affected by suspensions (or bans) or not.

If they are, then that really changes things. We can find out what they want from us and what we can expect from them. That conversation happened before, but under a prior regime, so refreshing that would be great if it's in the cards.

For me personally, barring #2, I plan to play until it feels like it isn't worth it anymore. One of my accounts is a lifetime account (which I'm sure they'd love to whack) and I pay for 5 more subs (Rizlona). All 6 accounts got hit with a 7 day awhile back that got overturned with a petition, and more recently a single 7 day which they wouldn't overturn. I wasn't real happy about that, and I'm waiting to see if that is going to become a regular occurrence or not. I really want to ride Rizlona to live, but I'm not going to do it taking 7-days (or worse) here and there; I've got plenty of other games I could be playing (or other RL shit).

At the end of the day Daybreak is competing for my time/money; ball's in their court.

 

[Snowball]

My fellow addicts! (I mean that humorously)

I have been reading this thread and the Fippy one daily, and I appreciate everyone's discussion and ventilation. Though dispassionate most of the time, I still get angry about these sporadic enforcement waves. I spent an hour reading the official EverQuest forums to see some of those player opinions as well. Inspired by this community, I am going to modify my course of action. Currently, I have 1 banned account (it still shows up on the guild roster), 12 gold accounts (some previously suspended, so they are flagged by DBG {Daybreak Games} now), and 1 "pure" centimillionaire account (runs on an old Dell with integrated graphics and no SSD {solid state drive}). Being self-aware, I will not quit EQ only to come back some later with severe withdrawal and pathetic excuses. However, after reading posts from fellow businessmen (indeed, ROI {return on investment} is everything), cutting subscriptions is clearly the only way to demonstrate to the managers (decision-makers) at DBG that their reasoning is incorrect. There are no new customers for the EverQuest service, so harassing existing customers makes no business sense. Their concept of "justice" is oversimplified. This is evident from the number of dissatisfied voices here who have 20+ years with this game.

(1) My initial plan was to simply continue my gaming, business as usual, getting the crew(s) to level 120 and maximum AA points.

(2) I disagree with the DBG management's selective enforcement reasoning and subsequently their conclusions. EverQuest Live is a defective multi-player service that has received new life (and certainly subscriptions) from third-party software. (Player A: "85 toon LFG!" Self-righteous Player B: "Go make friends! EQ is a MMO {massively multi-player online game} you know!") (After 2 hours, Player A logs off to watch Netflix.)

(3) TLP works for a population of players because it places (and locks) them into portions of the game that have proven playable quality. Development costs are minimal, because the content was created years ago. Like popular music from the past, players love to relive those experiences, and that wonderful "ding". The "holy trinity" of "tank, healer, slower" is not always necessary to survive, and "twinking" (more powerful characters empowering weaker characters) is relatively easy. However, this is not sustainable as the players advance in levels. At higher levels, the game requires more work on each character (50K+ AA points, 21 gear slots, type 4/5/7/8/18/22 augmentations, etc.), but also requires more PLAYERS (not including the raid-geared players who post solo videos on YouTube). The mercenary-for-hire NPCs {non-player characters} were an attempt to overcome this shortage of available players, but designed obsolescence decreased their effectiveness at higher levels. (Please forgive the nostalgia. I was in Las Vegas in August 2008, watching the "Seeds of Destruction" presentation at Fan Faire.) Designed obsolescence plagues much of the Live game's design. A returning Live player who purchases two or three heroic character boosts (at 3500 DBC each) and uses mercenaries to fill their group will likely become frustrated (as I was).

(4) Using modern programming technology, third-party software fills the void with magnificent superhero-level abilities. A single player with six gold accounts is able to successfully complete all group-level content through level 120. Of course, such advantages can tempt players to take some bold liberties, as we all know.

On the official forums, it is hard to recognize if the players are exaggerating or attempting to accurately describe the advantages of third-party software. From "The Veteran's Lounge":

"... play while they're sleeping, doing BBQs, spending time with their family, etc. Who cares if grinding levels takes 60 hours of killing mobs when not at the keyboard putting in the work. No batting an eyelash if there is a need of 8 silks to make a bracer container, and silks drop once every 20 mobs, because botters are killing about 800 of them while downstairs watching cartoons."

As a player in the higher levels, the advantage gap is like an enormous chasm. On one side, the progressing is painful or impossible. Mercenaries are underpowered. On the other side, leveraging the power of magnificent programming, countless doors swing wide open.
DBG management decided to harass all players that use third-party software by selectively enforcing their terms of service. The intended effect was to get a positive effect (ROI???) by targeting players using third-party software in a mass harassment campaign, including the termination of accounts.

This reminds me of an episode of X-Men The Animated Series. Military scientist Bolivar Trask built huge robot Sentinels to control mutants. When the programmed logic of the robots leads them to control all humans. Bolivar exclaims, "You were programmed to hunt and control mutants, not humans!" One quite logical robot responds, "Mutants ARE human. Thus, humans need to be controlled." Garbage in, garbage out. DBG seems to have overlooked that paying customers are among the players who use third-party software, as well as the value of such software in fixing deficiencies in EverQuest design. Where are the slower-role mercenaries? Are they ever going to strengthen the tank mercenary, making it useful?

Following their "logic", the DBG managers set their enforcement dogs loose with hunter-seeker algorithms. Were they targeting only AFK {away from keyboard} automated characters who hogged spawn camps? Were they targeting platinum farmers? Were they targeting anyone that got a /petition from a whiner? Were they targeting raiders who would get an unfair advantage in the Elite Gamers Lounge competition? Their huge net engulfed a lot of players. Whatever their criteria was, only feedback will determine the value of this action plan.

(5) To support the boycott, I will stop subscriptions on 5 gold accounts (5 X $12 per month) and forego expansions (TOL Collector's version was $69.99 since I like collecting mounts, so not buying 5 of those) going forward. Yes, maximum effect would be stopping them all and never buying another expansion. Unfortunately, I lack that level of willpower, so 6 accounts will continue to feed my addiction.

(6) My intention is that this boycott will convince some decision-maker at DBG to reconsider the "positive effect" of this kind of harassment, reducing these waves in the future. If they wish to see what losing subscription revenue looks like, we should deliver in spades. I wish I could go all-in, but I would be crawling back in a few weeks.

 

[akiima]

I don’t know what we should do, but I do know something needs to happen sooner rather than later.

I think our devs need to get that dialogue open again and try hard to reach an agreement of sorts. Similar to what we had prior to MQ coming out.

The problem with anti detection, in an open source is they can easily find what the anti detection is and build around it. I don’t think that’s going to be in the cards. So something else has to happen where they back off.

 

[Sic]

I don’t know what we should do, but I do know something needs to happen sooner rather than later.

I think our devs need to get that dialogue open again and try hard to reach an agreement of sorts. Similar to what we had prior to MQ coming out.

The problem with anti detection, in an open source is they can easily find what the anti detection is and build around it. I don’t think that’s going to be in the cards. So something else has to happen where they back off.

this is a common sentiment. don't think that folks that do mq stuff, particularly us at RG don't spend a lot of time trying to cultivate, and continue relationships.

unfortunately, lots of staff changes and direction changes at dbg make that increasingly more difficult.

even when magic back-alley conversations, agreements, and relationships were happening, we still got a less than equitable end of the stick.

and to be absolutely crystal clear - none of the dbg changes has to do with MQ over MQ2

 

[Xunil]

I only played 1 day in jan and ran character through 2 zones and camped and was suspended for "cheating", been in hospital ever since, so, either they are looking over past logs or checking for interjection.

 

[Sic]

I only played 1 day in jan and ran character through 2 zones and camped and was suspended for "cheating", been in hospital ever since, so, either they are looking over past logs or checking for interjection.

side note - hope you're doing alright purr! get well

 

[akiima]

this is a common sentiment. don't think that folks that do mq stuff, particularly us at RG don't spend a lot of time trying to cultivate, and continue relationships.

unfortunately, lots of staff changes and direction changes at dbg make that increasingly more difficult.

even when magic back-alley conversations, agreements, and relationships were happening, we still got a less than equitable end of the stick.

and to be absolutely crystal clear - none of the dbg changes has to do with MQ over MQ2

I have no doubt the good people here at RG are trying to maintain and build relationships. I am thinking at this point DPG just doesnt have any interest in working together with our community.

 

[Giggles]

Well im at work and was looking at my email and looks like they are starting to ban not just suspend. Been a good run folks, without RG i would have never returned. i had more fun than i ever did playing this game. I dont know which act it is but they are all 20+ years old. my question is can i get some money back? Because i did 6 yearly subscriptions and im going to go ahead and cancel it all.

Thanks all for the fun and gluck!!!