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Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (1 Viewer)

Redbot

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I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:
  • When reading this thread, you'll notice up ā–² and down ā–¼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
  • While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
  • We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.


EDIT & SUMMARY


If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried šŸ˜…. Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!
 
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you can search where i've explained a few times and don't intend or re-re-re-re-re-re-rehashing it every time it gets brought up, but i'd be doing myself and others a disservice by not saying "we don't want this"

prison server = no customer support
prison server = one way
prison server = run by the inmates (toxic)
prison server = think of the worst most toxic person you can think of in your general chat - now give them free reign to say/do things without repercussions.
prison server = does 0 to solve most of the reasons people box
prison server = good majority of folks who box aren't going to ditch their guild/friends/raid to go to the above listed shithole

even Holly mentioned how it looks better on paper than in actuality. they did it in eq2 > here <
A fair point but I feel itā€™s different than what we (maybe just me) have in mind. You absolutely have support because Iā€™m a paying customer. A prison server is a server I spin up and I make the rules. Like I would consider the project1999 server as a prison server. Iā€™m referring to a server that has support, has rules, has everything the current EQ has but doesnā€™t have automation restrictions. Have it optional like I feel rizlona was. They launched two servers one truebox, one not. Launch a new server and allow players to move to it and make it very strictly clear this ā€œliveā€ server is automation free. No warnings and instant bans will be issued for confirmed automating on this server. This other server automation is tolerated. They have servers today with different rule sets. Why canā€™t you do the same and one rule is automation allowed. They launch new TLPs all the time and as I understand it itā€™s a money maker. I donā€™t know the number but how many ā€œsubsā€ have they lost because of the suspension / ban waves over the years. Not people but subs.

Iā€™m not saying a prison server where the misfits are banished to. A meet in the middle solution.
 
A fair point but I feel itā€™s different than what we (maybe just me) have in mind. You absolutely have support because Iā€™m a paying customer. A prison server is a server I spin up and I make the rules. Like I would consider the project1999 server as a prison server. Iā€™m referring to a server that has support, has rules, has everything the current EQ has but doesnā€™t have automation restrictions. Have it optional like I feel rizlona was. They launched two servers one truebox, one not. Launch a new server and allow players to move to it and make it very strictly clear this ā€œliveā€ server is automation free. No warnings and instant bans will be issued for confirmed automating on this server. This other server automation is tolerated. They have servers today with different rule sets. Why canā€™t you do the same and one rule is automation allowed. They launch new TLPs all the time and as I understand it itā€™s a money maker. I donā€™t know the number but how many ā€œsubsā€ have they lost because of the suspension / ban waves over the years. Not people but subs.

Iā€™m not saying a prison server where the misfits are banished to. A meet in the middle solution.
dbg isn't going to be like "ah cool here have exactly what you want" when people ask for this, the answer is a prison server. if we could just say "hai guys can we have xyz" it would just be usage on regular servers lol
 
I will be honest i dont think there is anything you can do so stop them suspending and banning people,

Take a look on forums or even on facebook as soon as someone mentions MQ its like they have the plague and are the dirtest scum going,
I can understand it i remeber people warping in and ghost killing back in the day, So a lot folk just associate it with all that kind of stuff.

All i can think of is if was more pickzones for people to go in with their group if they bothered about 24/7 camps but guess thats more resources needed

Maybe if was some kinda positive publicity on its mainly people using it to make certain boring mundane tasks easier like most modern mmos have people would think differantly but i doubt it

As for keeping your head down, I orignally started using MQ so i could take on group missions i could not do duoing or three boxing with alt tab ,
The main account i was doing it for my 22 year old account is now perma banned. I didn't piss anyone off i stayed out of busy zones, stopped when people came in to the zone, paused everything if they were in pok, did camp check if were people in the zone and never had one GM come by and say hello.

It didnt stop him getting three suspensions in 7 or 8 weeks ending in a perma ban even though i stopped using MQ after second suspension on that account and only logged him in on a clean pc no MQ even installed and stopped logging him in after the third suspension so the obviously just keep suspending once your tagged

My wifes shammy who is also a 20 year account is on second suspension i have stopped even logging her in and now boxed bard who is 14 years old is on first suspension so he mostly likely get suspended again and again till banned

What pisses me off is years of paying subs and expansions and you still just get a one line email to ban you.

I used no 3rd party software for 21 of them years but even when i stopped logging in that account still got banned without even a reason why just your banned. So whats the point it stopping using MQ if its historical? Once they tagged you now it seems you have had it

I would been happy take suspensions if i had even logged in that account and been doing stuff

I have moved to test made two groups from scratch i wont be giving them a penny . when they ban them groups i will be done with it and try set up my own EMU :)
 
I don't necessarily feel compelled to explain nuance and non-literal interpretation of proverbs to somebody that has an Ingsoc banner in their signature.

Black hat, red hat, grey hat, blue hat. None of us are white hats.
 
There is no honor among thieves.

There absolutely should be atm however. Lets face it we are not good judges of what is "obvious". We know things and recognize behaviors that others might not find suspicious because we have knowledge of how things work. And especially right now all you are doing by reporting other MQ2 users is helping to provide more and better data points for DPG to improve their automated detection. Which will only hurt everyone including yourself. The days of building good will with DPG are gone. They aren't going to turn around and say, "well they are a bad user and you are a good one". The current management obviously is on a crusade and believes all are bad.
 
I wouldn't continue to be subbing on multiple accounts if it weren't for the QoL stuff RG provides. Player base is shot (for many reasons) and that is the fundamental problem.

RG is a tool. You can't blame the tool for the people misusing it. We also don't know how they make their determination to suspend/ban people. It should be blatantly obvious shenanigans are going on. They know it is a thin line and they need to balance their response. Kronos are a significant revenue source (anyone know how it compares to subs?).

With that said, it would be nice to have some sort random delay we can apply at various functions, like /mimicme rtimed ##, /say yes i will fetch your soiled drawers.
 
Make unorthodox groups

Use mercenaries

3 bards with a tank merc supported by 2 healer mercs would be an example.

Pet groups

Druid DPS groups

Charm pet groups

Paladin groups


If the crusaders are looking for 6 character groups with optimized trinity + DPS~ADPS then don't give that to them
 
This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.
This wouldn't work tho cause you would still have people playing on Live servers using MQ. Like it or not there are people that use it with active hacks or that use RG that are complete assholes and do it as a living or a way to make extra money from farming and selling Krono. The people that are doing this are not gonna be on a server with everyone else that boxes that can run raids they are trying to sell loot rights to because it's to much competition and a loss in sales for them.

What you would get on a server like this is nothing but something very very very toxic that would make your playtime a very unenjoyable experience.
 
I will be honest i dont think there is anything you can do so stop them suspending and banning people,

Take a look on forums or even on facebook as soon as someone mentions MQ its like they have the plague and are the dirtest scum going,
Obviously the discussion will be one-sided on the official forums, but elsewhere when moderators allow people to talk about MQ, the response is fairly positive. The Facebook discussion linked in the OP is a good example.
 
I don't necessarily feel compelled to explain nuance and non-literal interpretation of proverbs to somebody that has an Ingsoc banner in their signature.

Black hat, red hat, grey hat, blue hat. None of us are white hats.
Final Fantasy Pixel GIF
Yellow hat mofocka! yea...
 
I had to give Redbot's prompt some thought. If the community were to rally behind a position, it must be one with supportive evidence. After reading through some of the responses, I had to give the topic even more thought. In an early episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Commander William T. Riker poses a rhetorical question, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?" In the case of EverQuest, it is a very complex model to explain, which is why resolving problems is so difficult.

Case 1: Level 1 to Level 13 in The Mines of Gloomingdeep Tutorial.
Starting in the tutorial of EverQuest, a player is fully empowered to ascend to level 13 through quests and monster slaying experience. The difficulty is not overwhelming (especially with a healing mercenary), and a player can complete the introductory quests without taking a single death. Players do not need special software to complete these tasks. If a disruptive player continually camps a named kobold or goblin, it would obstruct progression. If the player is AFK and obstructing the progression of others, it can be interpreted as a social wrong. Forbidding the use of 3rd party software solves this problem without too much argument. There are quality-of-life benefits, such as the enhanced map, but removing MQ or other software does not change the game very much in this scenario. The purpose of this case is to illustrate a clear scenario where MQ is not needed for success.

Case 2: Level 85 in The Grounds.
To save time, a Heroic Character upgrade can be purchased which boosts a character to level 85. Many of the skills are boosted (like swimming) and the spell book is filled to level 85. At this point in the game, the character is specialized. An enchanter would not be swinging a club like in the tutorial. For a solo player, it requires much more skill to complete quests, farm equipment, and gain experience at level 85. Players could find themselves helpless to get any quests done, which is a bad spot. With poor player populations, a LFG request falls on deaf ears in 2022. At level 85, specialization is a given. How can a player's character join a group with other specialized characters at the proper level? The EverQuest game design today depends completely on other players. For example, a character could get level 120 buffs or an acquaintance can power-level the character. However, this again is dependent on other players. Power-leveling services for payment are regularly broadcasted. Work-arounds such as this are not part of brilliant game design, rather they are damage control for a game that has become stratified (layered) by its multi-expansion design.

*Suppose that low pay caused all elementary school teachers in a population between the grades of 3-5 to quit. the school district having no plan whatsoever for the students throws them in with 6th grade students. The surviving grade 6 teachers will expect the students to know multiplication and division as well as some level of US geography and history. To get their kids caught up, some parents may enroll them in special classes to get them caught up, for a fee of course. Necessity is the mother of invention.

This is where the market for third party software is both empowering and popular. The greatest advantage is running additional characters automatically. Instead of paying 3500 Daybreak points and feeling like a sucker as your character dies repeatedly, third software opens the door to superhero-level powers. The villain Sheev Palpatine said, ā€œThe Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.ā€ Arthur C. Clarke wrote, ā€œAny sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.ā€ Just as Deep Blue defeated Chess Grandmaster Gary Kasparov in 1997, computer software can perform tasks in a manner superior to humans. These software products are magnificent for players hurting for help (like superheroes). Need a full group of five more characters, casting spells and hitting disciplines to successfully kill monsters, complete quests, and farm gear? Third party software fits the bill. Like driverless cars, the software eliminates many of the flaws of human players. This automation is widespread in the commercial world. Supermarkets, Home Depot, Walmart, and even Taco Bell have automated stations to purchase goods. Clerks need to use the restroom regularly, take breaks (by labor law), have territorial drama (just like EverQuest players), and call-in sick. Microsoft Excel can process thousands of calculations, faster and more accurately than a human. For many players, including myself, it was a necessary evil. I had no idea how to play other character classes at level 85, and the human players were not available for my characters to progress.

Case 3: Level 120 in Maiden's Eye.
The current maximum level is 120. Most players know what a boxed group looks like. Whether it is a group using /autofollow or the "come to me" macro, the automated movements are in straight lines, revealing the software's unnatural efficiency. Multi-client broadcasts can execute a /say ready command to the entire group at once. The software has made the player a superhero. In Maiden's Eye, one monster drops an augmentation that is not awarded in any chest from the missions. Sic has beautifully demonstrated how to beat every Terror of Luclin mission on video, so any group can farm gear through the missions. It was like a piƱata exploding when the timer was just 3 hours. However, since this particular item was not on the drop tables, it required hunting in the static zone. Parking at a camp spot is the specialty of automation software in general. Humans have lapses in attention and become careless or discouraged. The software does not. After several hours, the augmentation was looted. Each character in the group was level 120 and has the maximum amount of AAs.

What is the issue? Well, if you take away the third-party software, very little of the content I just described could be completed. Many mission scenarios cannot be completed with fewer players, unless they are highly skilled and raid-geared, like those impressive solo videos on YouTube. Personally, I cannot convince any of my friends or family to play EverQuest. It is just not their thing. So, it has become a 1-player game for me. I imagine that for other conventional players, assembling a group that can beat the missions and farm a rare augmentation is also a major challenge. The gap is prohibitive, experiencing either superhero success or unplayable failure. Not to be unreasonably negative, but it is doubtful that the game's programmers can resolve this gap.

Case 4: True Box Servers
These rules make sense, just like the banned substances list for the Olympic games. Some players do not want superhero-level characters in their game environment. I respect that.

Case 5: Raiding Guilds
This survives as the highest level of sportsmanship in the EverQuest universe. The ranking is maintained on the Elite Gamers Lounge website. Just as athletic organizations forbid cheating, both guild officers and DBG personnel purge members that use third-party software. This makes sense.

In conclusion, there might be too many angles to define an official community position. As an addict (unreasonable by nature), I continue to pay money for my multiple subscriptions to this computer game because I enjoy it immensely. I re-played levels 1-13 in the tutorial for fun. I played a small band of characters from level 85 to 90, because I lack the steady patience of Maskoi to wait until level 100. In my most mature superhero group, I enjoy gameplay at level 120, well aware of the risks. Being honest, back in 1999 I was hooked, even with that stupid spell book blocking the screen. Fortunately, I have resources to replace subscriptions that have trouble. There is no question that being a superhero violates the game's rules, but whether it is the achievements or that "ding" sound, the superhero-style game is very difficult to give up. The problem I see with an emulated server option is when a superhero player hits the ceiling. Omens of War had a level cap of level 70, well below the current level cap of 120.

Sorry for saying a whole lot of nothing. There was just too much to consider to make it black and white.
 
This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.
Do I get a prize for the most disliked idea? :)
 
I work in technology in Silicon Valley and have done so for years, including stints at a few startups and some company's you know (I'm a computer scientist/software engineer). It's not about technology, its not about the user experience, its not the cool factor, at the end of the day for companies like DBG its a business and its always about the money, particularly in the C-suite. I think with the new ownership, the current EQ leadership has been given a bit of free reign to go after "cheaters" in the hopes that it will increase revenue by returning Everquest to its heyday and if we only get ride of cheaters/botters, gamers will flock back to Everquest and revenues will increase because obviously botters/cheaters are what has been driving declines in subscriptions. When the acquisition occurred, incoming ownership at EG7 were probably pitched this approach by JChan and her ilk and were given the green light so as to be given a chance to see how it goes.

I disagree, I think that this will not happen (revenue increase). In fact, I think players like me who have/had limited playtime and who's best gaming experience in EQ is running my own 6 box crew who abides by the common "play nice policy" are the sort of constant revenue streams that per subscription software businesses would crave. With that in mind I think the only real pressure to be applied is a financial one. This is what businesses understand at the end of the day. With that in mind, after catching my 1st suspension in 22 plus years and reading the writing on the wall I cancelled all 10 of my gold accounts. I see no reason to give business to a company who clearly does not want my business.

I think if you read the tea leaves this may be a viable approach but it will take time. I ask myself the question that I'm sure others have asked. Why only suspensions? If the VV and its ilk are so detrimental to the game, why only start with suspensions, why not go nuclear and just outright ban anyone found using automation? Because they want the revenue. From my perspective why on earth then should I pay for accounts I cannot use due to the ongoing crackdown? Its a bit of a catch 22 for them - piss me off and people like me and we go away along with our large monthly outlay, don't run me out of town and the white knights and vocal minority who whing about automation might go away with their single account.

It may take a couple of quarters each to see revenues contract. At that point if it does, the the people in the C-suite for EG7 will have some uncomfortable questions to put to the leadership at DPG if they are at all competent as to what they are doing. Its also possible that the amount of subscribers like myself (multiple accounts, buys kronos etc to feed my bot army, always buys the expansions, etc) are a minority of subscribers and trying to hit DPG in the wallet isn't viable, only they have the numbers - the fact that they aren't going all out ban tells me they need us financially and in the long run if financial pressure is applied they will have to come to an accommodation. In any case, in keeping with the times I'm applying my own financial sanctions against DBG (though I will keep subscribed to Redguides in the hopes you all come up with a solution.) For now I'm replaying Fallout....
 
I work in technology in Silicon Valley and have done so for years, including stints at a few startups and some company's you know (I'm a computer scientist/software engineer). It's not about technology, its not about the user experience, its not the cool factor, at the end of the day for companies like DBG its a business and its always about the money, particularly in the C-suite. I think with the new ownership, the current EQ leadership has been given a bit of free reign to go after "cheaters" in the hopes that it will increase revenue by returning Everquest to its heyday and if we only get ride of cheaters/botters, gamers will flock back to Everquest and revenues will increase because obviously botters/cheaters are what has been driving declines in subscriptions. When the acquisition occurred, incoming ownership at EG7 were probably pitched this approach by JChan and her ilk and were given the green light so as to be given a chance to see how it goes.

I disagree, I think that this will not happen (revenue increase). In fact, I think players like me who have/had limited playtime and who's best gaming experience in EQ is running my own 6 box crew who abides by the common "play nice policy" are the sort of constant revenue streams that per subscription software businesses would crave. With that in mind I think the only real pressure to be applied is a financial one. This is what businesses understand at the end of the day. With that in mind, after catching my 1st suspension in 22 plus years and reading the writing on the wall I cancelled all 10 of my gold accounts. I see no reason to give business to a company who clearly does not want my business.

I think if you read the tea leaves this may be a viable approach but it will take time. I ask myself the question that I'm sure others have asked. Why only suspensions? If the VV and its ilk are so detrimental to the game, why only start with suspensions, why not go nuclear and just outright ban anyone found using automation? Because they want the revenue. From my perspective why on earth then should I pay for accounts I cannot use due to the ongoing crackdown? Its a bit of a catch 22 for them - piss me off and people like me and we go away along with our large monthly outlay, don't run me out of town and the white knights and vocal minority who whing about automation might go away with their single account.

It may take a couple of quarters each to see revenues contract. At that point if it does, the the people in the C-suite for EG7 will have some uncomfortable questions to put to the leadership at DPG if they are at all competent as to what they are doing. Its also possible that the amount of subscribers like myself (multiple accounts, buys kronos etc to feed my bot army, always buys the expansions, etc) are a minority of subscribers and trying to hit DPG in the wallet isn't viable, only they have the numbers - the fact that they aren't going all out ban tells me they need us financially and in the long run if financial pressure is applied they will have to come to an accommodation. In any case, in keeping with the times I'm applying my own financial sanctions against DBG (though I will keep subscribed to Redguides in the hopes you all come up with a solution.) For now I'm replaying Fallout....
Just wanted to say well-written and makes 100% sense to me. I think you bring up two great points:
  1. There are things that our devs can do to de-escalate or help resolve.
  2. As a community, there's a separate conversation or decision we need to have/make at the "town-square" level on what our responses should be
My response to all this non-sense came over a year ago and mirrored your own. I stopped purchasing all their products with real world currency. I just enjoy the game in FTP mode, and grind plat for krono. I never say never but a lot would have to change within DBG's policies before I'd sub again. Like many here, there's no eq for me without mq/vv/cwtn plug-ins.

As Murtaugh would say...my wrists can't take and...


Lethal Weapon Fuck This Shit GIF
 
Case 4: True Box Servers
These rules make sense, just like the banned substances list for the Olympic games. Some players do not want superhero-level characters in their game environment. I respect that.
I don't understand this line of thinking. We aren't allowed to use MQ at all. If you respected what other players want you wouldn't use it on any server. We've self imposed a rule in hopes that they would leave the larger community alone and for a time it worked. Everyone wants to play the game their own way. Its very obvious that everyone against MQ on Truebox has no interest in playing on them so its an easy opinion to have. Lets stop cherry picking which DPG rules we want to follow.
 
I couldn't agree more. I cancelled 18 gold accounts and moved to test for the time being. Enough of that happens and it might move the needle in the right direction. On a positive note, I have only had 3 of 48 accounts on test suspended so far ;)
 
Do I get a prize for the most disliked idea? :)

I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.
 
I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.
After reading Sic's post about the "jail" sever, I also agree it's not a good idea. The Rizlona option where there are rules and CS to deal with the aholes would be a good solution and it can be proposed to DPG, but I see little reason to try that route since they are suspending/banning on that server as well and it was setup basically to do what we do. I'm ok with the occasional 7/14 day vaca and I'm sure my family would support it, but the potential to lose accounts I setup in 1999 permanently bothers me because who knows if things will change down the line again

I'm in Silicon Valley as well as @skaffloctz and time is an issue for me as well. I only get so much time to play and w/o my 6 crew, I'm not willing to play the endless LFG game. I'm also not willing to patronize a company that clearly does not want my business. I agree that in the end, a corporation is ultimately about profit. Jchan and others have those above them they answer to and if they drive away enough of us and revenue declines, there may be some changes coming from higher up. The real "maybe" in this approach is how many MQ (and other software users) make up their revenue. The only way I know of to find out is canceling. 6 cancelled here in the beginning of April. If we do make up a significant number of the population as I think we do, then they may just stop doing what they are doing and go back to chasing those that don't play nice. I doubt they will EVER say MQ is ok, but stopping suspending/banning basically says that. However, I will continue to support this community with revenue as I really love it and appreciate all the effort that has gone into making it what it is and it will be nice to utilize if this current BS at DPG stops.
 
I wouldn't continue to be subbing on multiple accounts if it weren't for the QoL stuff RG provides. Player base is shot (for many reasons) and that is the fundamental problem.

RG is a tool. You can't blame the tool for the people misusing it. We also don't know how they make their determination to suspend/ban people. It should be blatantly obvious shenanigans are going on. They know it is a thin line and they need to balance their response. Kronos are a significant revenue source (anyone know how it compares to subs?).

With that said, it would be nice to have some sort random delay we can apply at various functions, like /mimicme rtimed ##, /say yes i will fetch your soiled drawers.
Another one is pet spam from being given pet toys (thank you for the xyz), which is generated waaaay too quickly. With 4 pets in group it's actually funny.
 
Itā€™s very obvious that everyone against MQ on Truebox has no interest in playing on them so its an easy opinion to have.
Iā€™ve played on a few of the Truebox servers. I enjoy it occasionally (though Iā€™m not one that would play one every year). I donā€™t really think you need MQ on Truebox and I played without it. Definitely not needed at the start and not needed until much later if youā€™re ā€œriding the wave.ā€

1.) There are plenty of people and plenty of groups to be had at all hours of the day. Population isnā€™t an issue because itā€™s high and consolidated.
2.) There is not a lot you canā€™t do solo. Most old world quests and even the Kunark Archaeologist quests either have things you can do solo or drop in places where there are active groups. I canā€™t think of a scenario where you have to camp something in a dead zone, even if you do have to camp something.
3.) The time sinks are minimal. A lot of the old world stuff just relied on people not knowing what they were doing. Now that people do, itā€™s not nearly as much of a time sink and all the QoL things that were added (smoothing out levels, less exp loss from death, no corpse runs for gear) all reduce that original time sink.

This isnā€™t true of the modern game, and granted there are some original things like this as well in the TLP game but there are many more in the modern game. There are design decisions that would ask you to get a group of your five closest friends to camp something with you for a few days or spend hundreds of hours to ā€œbaselineā€ your AAs and gear so that youā€™re not trash or dead weight to any group you join.

I would say MQ probably starts to become useful for the casual gamer around Luclin when AAs enter the picture and the disparity between time commitments begins to show. It becomes pronounced in Planes of Power when flagging comes in, and it gets excessive in GoD when the population falls off and the ā€œwaveā€ has crashed.
 
I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.

For me, Im not so sure about this. My guild is just me and my family, I dont interact with anyone else in the game unless I am somehow forced to. If someone sends me a tell, I answer but I never group with anyone other than myself and my guild, and I dont pay attention to what anyone is saying in /general unless someone is selling an item I want to buy or something like that.

I dont think I would even notice the difference between a "jail" server and my current server tbh. But, I can't say for sure since I have never played on a jail server. Who has?
 
I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.
I think thereā€™s a difference. I donā€™t think anyone actually wants a jail server (with no enforcement and lawlessness), just one they can play in peace. But we, as a community, could take that stance and all move to Rizlona. Itā€™s not really any different than the reverse stance on PvP (that if people want a PvP server they should play on the PvP servers that exist).

Of course, Rizlona is not yet at Live so itā€™s not taking character transfers from Live and itā€™s missing content that Live has so that's probably more of a long-term strategy -- and it doesn't satisfy people who like the FV ruleset. And then people have their friends on other servers. But I personally think Rizlona is the best one to use as our own server. It was a boxing server in spirit and supporting that is valuable to our community. It also matters that Rizlona is pay to play right now, which means it's supported monetarily -- putting our money where our mouth is.

Still, Live in 2025 hurts.
 
Thank you to the RG leaders, developers, and community. I would not have stayed with this game if I didn't have MQ to play.

I don't personally think that DPG really has anything against MQ users (we generate money for them as well, maybe more than the average player with the amount of accounts subbed)..... but really it comes down to the other players that are complaining. DPG is behind what other games are and how they play. The individual players honestly need better resources from DPG in order to play the game effectively. Mercs making molo possible was a good start but it stopped there. That was implemented years ago! I have not seen any additional resources put to the every day player. MQ has! I don't know the stats but most of the people I know have played EQ in the early 2000's and come back. We are all older and still support this game. I've seen in the forums how they can't box as well since we are older, or have developed a type of disability, etc.) I work two jobs personally and I don't have the time to waste hours LFG and hundreds of hours to grind exp and AA at a slow pace of molo'ing or maybe with one or two others. I want to play all the classes, I want to get all the AA's, but its too much to do each toon individually or box only 2-3, let alone all 6 effectively. There isn't enough grouping, so I created my own with the help of MQ. (I also am off at odd hours and days...but thats me). I feel DPG needs to step up on their side by implementing things from MQ to EQ to continue going on for years to come.

I've started having suspensions in the last couple of months. In that time I have found other things to do and other games to play. I still come back to EQ. I will as long as MQ is around. EQ has that older feel (which is a thing I love and hate at the same time). I've played enough modern games to really see the difference.

It really sucks that there are people strongly against MQ. I hear it in general. Some of the times its MQ abusing camps and permacamping. (I am not for camping names yet I do have my fav camp spots that don't include quest mobs/named. People who abuse quest/names should be checked on but imo not the ones that are camping non-quest/non-named mobs just to help grind the ridiculous amount of exp). Some of it is because people get jealous because they secretly wish they were able to have it easier so in jealousy they attack or report so everyone is at their level. Instead the non-mq players should be brought up to a better level.

Someone had said that DPG is acting more like a parent to children fighting. I can agree and DPG is following what any game EULA tends to be. Its something to protect their assessts. I just feel that DPG should maybe skip out on an expansion for a year and work on getting the game better and bring it up to current style of gaming. It could bring more people to the game because lets face it, EQ IS A LOT to handle. I've seen people start and then just never see them again. The people who have stuck it out still vent their frustrations in general and then direct their frustrations at others. If DPG is going to 'be the parent' fix the problem instead of putting band-aids (suspensions) to appease the masses.

What does this mean for RG and our community? I strongly suggest both sides are open and frank with each other. Listen and learn from each other. RG has some very talented coders and script writers. Its all open sourced now so listen and learn, then make better. What is the most commonly reported about MQ users? Tell us so we can avoid whatever it is. Is it something that DPG maybe has to implement? I realize that there are people who won't follow but don't let a few bad apples ruin the rest of us. Just give them warnings and after a few warnings, suspensions, then ban. People (RG and DPG) should have the decency to allow change in their patterns or guided back to the path by telling what was wrong (not only "you're cheating" line we get in all the suspensions). Let both sides work together to support a game we all love and enjoy!
 
I agree with the posts here about financial reasons being the best leverage. Why don't we try and get a rough estimate of how many paid subs players here have and get a guesstimate dollar figure, this would put to rest or confirm a lot of speculation. you could easily figure that each paid redguides sub likely has at least a couple subs + recent expansion purchases or do a poll. might be a good idea to considered actual paid vs krono subs as well, as most krono transactions are 3rd party.

I have 7 actual paid and 7 others that are krono subbed. I would not play if I did not have redguides for a lot of the same reasons everyone mentions above. So there's around 200$ a month + the 12 ToL expansions that I purchased another over $400 and then any DB cash I might have purchased recently not even considered. Not to be spiteful about the situation but they are a business not a charity at the end of the day its dollars that pay the bills. They certainly will not make the same dollars off the smiles of the happy 1 sub solo player that doesn't use mq, but the question is how substantial is that figure? I actually think that around 90% of the anti-mq player movement would switch in a heartbeat and use these same tools, and enjoy the game so much more than they are now. they are just are to dumb or lazy to use them for lack of better terms and their envy and jealousy becomes spite towards those of us that do use these tools. any how I contribute around $3K per year to DBG's revenue all things considered.

Now lets say we we cut that in half to 1.5K per year times lets say 2/3rds the RG paid subs. that should give you a rough estimate of the financial impact and then put to rest speculation, or arm us with financial leverage.
 
Iā€™ve played on a few of the Truebox servers. I enjoy it occasionally (though Iā€™m not one that would play one every year). I donā€™t really think you need MQ on Truebox and I played without it. Definitely not needed at the start and not needed until much later if youā€™re ā€œriding the wave.ā€

1.) There are plenty of people and plenty of groups to be had at all hours of the day. Population isnā€™t an issue because itā€™s high and consolidated.
2.) There is not a lot you canā€™t do solo. Most old world quests and even the Kunark Archaeologist quests either have things you can do solo or drop in places where there are active groups. I canā€™t think of a scenario where you have to camp something in a dead zone, even if you do have to camp something.
3.) The time sinks are minimal. A lot of the old world stuff just relied on people not knowing what they were doing. Now that people do, itā€™s not nearly as much of a time sink and all the QoL things that were added (smoothing out levels, less exp loss from death, no corpse runs for gear) all reduce that original time sink.

This isnā€™t true of the modern game, and granted there are some original things like this as well in the TLP game but there are many more in the modern game. There are design decisions that would ask you to get a group of your five closest friends to camp something with you for a few days or spend hundreds of hours to ā€œbaselineā€ your AAs and gear so that youā€™re not trash or dead weight to any group you join.

I would say MQ probably starts to become useful for the casual gamer around Luclin when AAs enter the picture and the disparity between time commitments begins to show. It becomes pronounced in Planes of Power when flagging comes in, and it gets excessive in GoD when the population falls off and the ā€œwaveā€ has crashed.
So going off of what you just said, your opinion is that restricting on truebox is warranted because classic up until luclin its very easy to group with others and do content even at a solo level, and then starting around PoP and into GoD is when the "wave" crashes and u can start to understand the use of MQ?
So with that said, there is currently zero TLP's which meet that criteria.
Would it not make sense to relax our truebox limitations when a server reaches GoD? OOW? At what point would you feel its entered the era where you could accept its use? I don't see it being very difficult to update the approved server list for a server once it reaches a certain checkpoint instead of just going based off of whether it is truebox or not?

Apologies if this came off as hostile, not my intentions, just curious.
 
Sorry I was raised on Tallon Zek. MQ just added a whole other level of grief. Fuck those idiots.
If you were using MQ in a way to grief or kill steal raid mobs I would report you immediately.
Haha - I started on TZ as well - Discordia/Indignation for life - when I was faced by "tracking" necromancers that is what started me down the MQ dark road in order to level the playing field. Well met sir....
 
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Cancelled 5/6 accounts and thinking of cancelling the last now.

It is no longer fun tabbing, this is how I want to play the game, if I can't then I won't play.

Kudos to all RG devs, been purchasing most of the stuff <3

Thank you all
 
So going off of what you just said, your opinion is that restricting on truebox is warranted because classic up until luclin its very easy to group with others and do content even at a solo level, and then starting around PoP and into GoD is when the "wave" crashes and u can start to understand the use of MQ?
So with that said, there is currently zero TLP's which meet that criteria.
Would it not make sense to relax our truebox limitations when a server reaches GoD? OOW? At what point would you feel its entered the era where you could accept its use? I don't see it being very difficult to update the approved server list for a server once it reaches a certain checkpoint instead of just going based off of whether it is truebox or not?

Apologies if this came off as hostile, not my intentions, just curious.
I didnā€™t take it as hostile, so no worries there.

Donā€™t get me wrong, I see the reasons people would want to use MQ in any era. I was mostly just saying that the RG communityā€™s reasons for using MQ based on the general sentiment of why RG users use MQ is mostly not really needed on a TLP. That was in opposition to the stance that people supporting no use of MQ on Truebox servers arenā€™t coming from a position of having played on Truebox.

But thatā€™s only my feeling that you donā€™t really need it.

I donā€™t support it because itā€™s blatantly at odds with what Truebox is designed to be. Granted Truebox is not a ā€œno boxā€ server but it is very biased against boxing. Iā€™ve stated that opinion elsewhere so I wonā€™t rehash it here, but it boils down to: DPG specifically wants you to not box on these servers. Going against that by adding methods to box is not really acting in good faith with where I want MQ (in general) to be. Now, thatā€™s only my personal opinion. I recognize and respect that opinions run the gamut.

Addressing the other questions of ā€œWhen should it be introducedā€ ā€” DPG made an interesting decision on these newer servers in recognizing the value of boxing at certain eras and lightening/lifting their own restrictions. Regardless of where I see the needs for it, theyā€™ve drawn a line in the sand and I can respect that line.

I think some people choose to view this as cowardly and thatā€™s okay. Given MQā€™s origins and how far weā€™ve come we can have different views. I see it as a chance to show where Iā€™m willing to compromise and, if nothing else, that Iā€™m willing to reduce provocation regardless of what other actors do. I like to be in a place where Iā€™m always acting in good faith.
 
I didnā€™t take it as hostile, so no worries there.

Donā€™t get me wrong, I see the reasons people would want to use MQ in any era. I was mostly just saying that the RG communityā€™s reasons for using MQ based on the general sentiment of why RG users use MQ is mostly not really needed on a TLP. That was in opposition to the stance that people supporting no use of MQ on Truebox servers arenā€™t coming from a position of having played on Truebox.

But thatā€™s only my feeling that you donā€™t really need it.

I donā€™t support it because itā€™s blatantly at odds with what Truebox is designed to be. Granted Truebox is not a ā€œno boxā€ server but it is very biased against boxing. Iā€™ve stated that opinion elsewhere so I wonā€™t rehash it here, but it boils down to: DPG specifically wants you to not box on these servers. Going against that by adding methods to box is not really acting in good faith with where I want MQ (in general) to be. Now, thatā€™s only my personal opinion. I recognize and respect that opinions run the gamut.

Addressing the other questions of ā€œWhen should it be introducedā€ ā€” DPG made an interesting decision on these newer servers in recognizing the value of boxing at certain eras and lightening/lifting their own restrictions. Regardless of where I see the needs for it, theyā€™ve drawn a line in the sand and I can respect that line.

I think some people choose to view this as cowardly and thatā€™s okay. Given MQā€™s origins and how far weā€™ve come we can have different views. I see it as a chance to show where Iā€™m willing to compromise and, if nothing else, that Iā€™m willing to reduce provocation regardless of what other actors do. I like to be in a place where Iā€™m always acting in good faith.
My only problem is that DPG isn't saying "Relaxed MQ boxing". They have drawn the line that MQ is against TOS and they are acting on it. I don't see that self imposed honor rules is going to make them ban us less. I get people don't want to poke the bear but it's irrelevant when the bear is already attacking you.

I feel like Mule and RG already acted in good faith when they disabled the use in their compile. I didn't like it but I could at least agree with it when they left us alone elsewhere. Now that my live accounts are being suspended/banned I think we can take the gloves off. Might this bring them down harder? Sure, but the sentiment I've gotten from this thread is that most people are cancelling their subs anyway.

I'm glad Red made this post but the decision should definitely be left to the MQ/RG devs who have built the community. I'm just angry and venting šŸ˜‚.
 
Perhaps I explained poorly. My opinion has no basis in what DPG does or does not do. More bans, less bans, all out war of escalation from their side, it doesnā€™t matter. I personally donā€™t care what DPG does. I do care about the health of the game, in general, though. And I think the TLPs do bring a lot of money in. So I feel like weā€™re acting in good faith to honor the wishes there (even if they might feel Iā€™m acting in bad faith by not honoring their wishes in general).

I never agreed with the stance that if you donā€™t provoke them and give them all your user information, they wonā€™t bite. They will do what they do, regardless of my stance. But I understand their intent with Truebox is to have less people boxing and Iā€™m willing to facilitate that. The flip side of that is I will also still working on making sure we donā€™t get caught elsewhere. Because I will do what I do, regardless of their stance.
 
Request - How should we respond to suspension waves?

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