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Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (3 Viewers)

Redbot

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I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:
  • When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
  • While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
  • We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.


EDIT & SUMMARY


If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried 😅. Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!
 
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after purchasing ToL over time on 12 accts and than having 11/12 toons suspended twice in one month i like many others decided to take a breather from the game and will not give DPG anymore money until hopefully either things cool down (hoping this is just a PR stunt to appease the karens of norrath) or a somewhat pliable solution is found. ill continue to participate in RG community as its more insightful and entertaining than anything else eq related. thanks RG and all those involved for the fun! hope to maybe one day run MQ again! until than ill watch from the sidelines =)
i was late to the party on up and down voting but the top two winning ideas seem like the most credible possibilities. staying off the Truebox servers is a no brainer. messing with DPGs cash cow wont solve anything. and perhaps with a drop in subs theyll realize servers like rizlona would also prove to be the cash cow they need to get that lost sub profit back
 

woobs

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Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients.

I would also be interested in playing around with this to bring ModBot for EMU up to date. I assume the current MQ on EMU is 'old' MQ2 and when you say work has begun, you are specifically talking about 'new' MacroQuest?
 

Redbot

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I would also be interested in playing around with this to bring ModBot for EMU up to date. I assume the current MQ on EMU is 'old' MQ2 and when you say work has begun, you are specifically talking about 'new' MacroQuest?

Yup, and here's the work beginning:
 
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Even if an agreement existed, it was never leverage.
Respectfully disagree. If you have something I want you have leverage over me to get it. They wanted MQ to not work on TLP servers and they got that. We got left a lone for years basically as long as we were not afk and at the keyboard. Things have obviously changed. So why are we still not allowing MQ on TLP servers ?
 

Knightly

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Respectfully disagree. If you have something I want you have leverage over me to get it. They wanted MQ to not work on TLP servers and they got that. We got left a lone for years basically as long as we were not afk and at the keyboard. Things have obviously changed. So why are we still not allowing MQ on TLP servers ?
Leverage is different from want/desire. If I had $1 that I said you could have would you want it? (Probably yeah, everyone likes free money). Does that give me leverage over you? Not in the least. Leverage isn’t about want, it’s about power. But more than that, it’s about the power to influence a specific outcome. Right now, DPG doesn’t want MQ running on any of its servers, but that doesn’t make lack of MQ leverage. And even though they didn’t want boxing on their Truebox servers, MQ was never leverage in that area. At best it was (and is) a gesture of good will.

The question of “Why not put MQ on Truebox” keeps coming up but it’s the wrong question. I’ve yet to see a value proposition for what putting MQ on Truebox gains. “We want them to look the other way so we should shine a brighter light” doesn’t seem right to me. It’s zero effort to continue on the path we’ve been on with regards to Truebox restrictions, which is different from MQ2Ic which had to make changes whenever a new Truebox server came out. So, at the very least, continuing in this vein lets us be lazy about it, but — again — I see no value proposition presented for what it would gain the MQ community.

I do see a different value proposition salvo, unrelated to Truebox, but I’m not ready to talk about that yet.
 
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Many of us are already boycotting EQ. It wouldn't take much more to just ask the entire MQ community to avoid logging in on May 31st and June 1st. Also, camp all bazaar and/or guild hall mules. Still raid on your main character if raids are scheduled.

If they keep monthly statistics, then those two days will affect two month's worth of data.

Gather and log General channel usage the week before, then during the boycott, then the week after.
 
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Many of us are already boycotting EQ. It wouldn't take much more to just ask the entire MQ community to avoid logging in on May 31st and June 1st. Also, camp all bazaar and/or guild hall mules. Still raid on your main character if raids are scheduled.

If they keep monthly statistics, then those two days will affect two month's worth of data.

Gather and log General channel usage the week before, then during the boycott, then the week after.
To what end? I'm having trouble seeing the value in this.
 
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I'm not saying that this would do anything, but unless DPG knows why the numbers dropped it would likely just get looked at as well college exam time, or overlooked completely. But then there's a good chance that some DPG employee is reading all of this any way.
 
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To what end? I'm having trouble seeing the value in this.

It’s really simple until they use the ban hammer - it means they are 100% concerned about recurring monthly revenue and also the annual number. Since htey aren‘t using it - it suggests they don’t want to push us away due to MRR/ARR impact. Otherwise why not ban in mass? I know we have seen limited bans but they aren’t doing mass.

It suggests they are a bit afraid of telling the private equity firm owners they lost 5 or 7% points in revenue. THat may not seem like a lot but on a game this old it’s huge. How much we are all worth is the question. But given what I spend on XPACS and station cash - I suspect we are on high dollar customers and losing those is worse. Also despite the fact that many buy krono to pay for their chars - thats also a huge benefit because it gets liability off the books which is also huge.

I still think they don’t want us to leave. OTherwise I question why no ban hammer. It feels like they are testing to se if we will willingly change behavior . Which I won’t - despite having invested $3k in to the game this year alone.
 
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It’s really simple until they use the ban hammer - it means they are 100% concerned about recurring monthly revenue and also the annual number. Since htey aren‘t using it - it suggests they don’t want to push us away due to MRR/ARR impact. Otherwise why not ban in mass? I know we have seen limited bans but they aren’t doing mass.

It suggests they are a bit afraid of telling the private equity firm owners they lost 5 or 7% points in revenue. THat may not seem like a lot but on a game this old it’s huge. How much we are all worth is the question. But given what I spend on XPACS and station cash - I suspect we are on high dollar customers and losing those is worse. Also despite the fact that many buy krono to pay for their chars - thats also a huge benefit because it gets liability off the books which is also huge.

I still think they don’t want us to leave. OTherwise I question why no ban hammer. It feels like they are testing to se if we will willingly change behavior . Which I won’t - despite having invested $3k in to the game this year alone.
I get your argument about revenue. I'm not (yet) convinced that a bunch of us unsubbing will have any impact on this matter, but it doesn't matter because that wasn't what was suggested.

What was suggested was a weekend when we don't log into EQ. Not logging in for two days doesn't affect revenue in any way.

You could say "well they'll know we're serious", but that's a joke because we aren't. Those that are serious about unsubbing have already done so (as seen previously in this thread).

Not logging in for two days is the equivalent of a high-school walk-out. The teachers get a free day without babysitting other people's kids, and we get left with more homework than we started with.
 
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I get your argument about revenue. I'm not (yet) convinced that a bunch of us unsubbing will have any impact on this matter, but it doesn't matter because that wasn't what was suggested.

What was suggested was a weekend when we don't log into EQ. Not logging in for two days doesn't affect revenue in any way.

You could say "well they'll know we're serious", but that's a joke because we aren't. Those that are serious about unsubbing have already done so (as seen previously in this thread).

Not logging in for two days is the equivalent of a high-school walk-out. The teachers get a free day without babysitting other people's kids, and we get left with more homework than we started with.

It’s more about showing a united front. Right now even thoguh I got one suspension I’ve missed several. I’m on the fence. If i take a 7 day sit once every 2-3 months I’m fine with it. If it becomes a monthly thing. I’m gone.

One thing they’ve done smartly is not hit so many people like the latter option thta more walk out. However if enough of my accounts get hit every month, again I’m out.

Anyway.I suspect some are on the fence right now thinking: how often is my time out? will it be come a ban? Is this a nuisance or a real problem? So far it’s hard to judge.
 
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In my opinion, they probably already have a good to solid idea of how many accounts use third party software. I also assume they are comfortable with losing those numbers if push came to shove.

Try thinking about it like this for a few minutes... If this was your game, that you spent X amount to aquire, and you had access to Everything behind the scenes. Would you not take the time to pull and compile data, creating averages and forcasting models, across numerous data points. Then discuss this data with technical leads and managers, from all departments including financial and game experience. Weigh it all out with the board, consultants or whoever and figuring out how bad it may affect the bottom line at the end of the day, quarterly, bi and yearly. Probably even a 5 year forecast figuring in a possibility of selling again... the variables are numerous.

Maybe I'm giving them to much credit, but I doubt it. If they wanted us gone, we would be gone. I strongly feel we need to keep trying to open communication with DPG and keep working on anon, stealth and evade tools. It's possible that they do like our money, why wouldn't they, and just need to strike a solution better suited for both sides, the third party users and the others. I feel one of the major issues is how to manage end game raiders. Non-third party users that raid are probably some of the loudest, and I totally see their point. Even if they are unaware of MQ users among their own ranks.

That's my ramblings anyway.

-Taz
 
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It might not gain us anything but we're basically doing it for nothing now. The gesture of goodwill benefited the larger MQ community as a whole but that ship has sailed.

Your only looking at one side of the equation. The other side is it could have even more people vocal about it on the forums. Right now if you look at the forums it’s literally the same 5-7 people praising it. Not al ot of people backing it. And DPG is leaving it open for some time typically before closing finally. So they are definitley monitoring.
 

gameross

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Your only looking at one side of the equation. The other side is it could have even more people vocal about it on the forums. Right now if you look at the forums it’s literally the same 5-7 people praising it. Not al ot of people backing it. And DPG is leaving it open for some time typically before closing finally. So they are definitley monitoring.
There's a post on EQ forums? Can you post a link? I recall trying to find a post there is a huge pain.
 
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There’s been quite a few one is on the main page that accendo finally locked after 12 pages. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...siness-would-choose-to-destroy-itself.282788/
That took just a minute to understand. They're all wrong. First the main argument against us, "we make other people lose at EQ." We don't. We can't. Somehow me obtaining my EQ goals now hurts Joe one account.

I should write up how EQ is a RPG first and foremost and a collection game a close second. Both of which mean, I can't hurt another person.
You can instance a new zone. You can ask me to leave. You can run your own instance. There's nothing I can do you due to my VV usage.

I don't need VV to be an asshole. They're just complaining about assholes not vv.
 
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That took just a minute to understand. They're all wrong. First the main argument against us, "we make other people lose at EQ." We don't. We can't. Somehow me obtaining my EQ goals now hurts Joe one account.

I should write up how EQ is a RPG first and foremost and a collection game a close second. Both of which mean, I can't hurt another person.
You can instance a new zone. You can ask me to leave. You can run your own instance. There's nothing I can do you due to my VV usage.

I don't need VV to be an asshole. They're just complaining about assholes not vv.

No disagreement but if you follow forums there’s been about dozens and dozens of these posts since it started. And generally you see those same people in there supporting suspensions. But quite a few people pointing out all the flaws. The fact that DPG is stil listening is interesting though and they only shut it down when those same folks derail.

Look no business throws revenue away. No aging business throws it away with customers wh are paying and some of us are big customers for them. Also Even those who Kronos 30-40 subs a month - thats a huge return for the business in removing liability (it’s not fully recognized revenue on the books until then). I just really believe we have some value to DPG or we would all be seeing ban hammers
 

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What's really funny is MySEQ/ShowEQ probably affects the game/server(s) far more than MQ does. People blatantly use it and there isn't a named worth a damn that lasts 5 minutes in any current expansion zone.

VT/Ssra was the most noteworthy I experienced as there was a race to those zones within seconds of some named spawning and it wasn't boxed armies doing them in until past the expansion. Every noteworthy zone I see AFK boxe(s) sitting there using SEQ watching for named spawned for days. (if ya didn't know SEQ can send out a email when a named spawns)

Also, I would hear officers/leaders asking or saying if "anything (else) was up" all the time in every guild I've been on since I started playing again 3-4 years ago, so SEQ is blatantly being used and affects the server far more than MQ ever did.

People shared MySEQ blatantly and even new offsets were posted in Discord. So I'm guessing it's 20x more prevalent than MQ.

Honestly, fixing /follow :bang: and being able to auto accept invites would probably knock off 5% of MQ users reason to use MQ.

Anyone else think SEQ is next? I doubt it, but who knows.
 
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Knightly

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I‘d be curious about this because it still should have a liability on their books. Working in SAAS companies got in trouble for this previously. Maybe there’s some work around with game currency I’m not aware of f but they should have some type of liability against this.
SAAS is different, the last S is the product and you have contractual obligations. In this case, you bought krono, you have received your item. But this thread probably isn't the best place to discuss the differences. Here's one breakdown (in reply to Gift Cards, but it covers more than that) https://www.redguides.com/community...ons-megathread-2022.76638/page-68#post-512894
 
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I say this in every thread, but this is incorrect.
In every accounting system in the world once they have your money its revenue to them. But some people just refuse to believe it.

I‘d be curious about this because it still should have a liability on their books. Working in SAAS companies got in trouble for this previously. Maybe there’s some work around with game currency I’m not aware of f but they should have some type of liability against this.
Why would it be a liability. They cant lose money on it, they dont owe anyone anything(no matter how many people attempt to claim otherwise), and the second that its purchased its provided the value that they claim for it. Its straight revenue pure and simple.
 
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i want to post something but every time i type it out it becomes a long winded ramble. So here is the short and sweet.

DPG/DBG has only 4 revenue streams in regards to EQ. 1 Subs (likely with out VV only 2 per person playing) 2 Expansions 1 per year and at most 1 per subbed account. 3 DBC store, mostly vanity items but a few useful items to those who aren't at maxed out levels. And 4 Krono.

#4 Is not a liability to DPG/DBG if you don't believe me and think its like a gift card that can be returned for the value stated at time of purchase then just go to https://www.everquest.com/krono. look under the question *is this refundable* the answer is NO. This purchase is not refundable for instore or any other kind of credit other then 30 days to the subscription of the account which the item is consumed upon. Now why would I focused on krono. Because i honestly think that krono sales are 95% about selling that item for some plat. and 5% at most of some one going well I'm a give this as a gift to some one but I don't want to pay for their account every month or have them know my CC info. Honestly its likely even higher on the % for plat. And where does that plat come from. Well on most servers people who farm with boxed teams. And if the plat isn't there krono's don't sale for the plat that the person thought hey would get and the cash purchases from DPG/DBG for krono's would got to a trickle. If you don't think that the majority of krono's are being purchased to sell to people who farm plat then just look at the bottom of our forums, there's a link to ECT. Where you can purchase krono's for not 17 dollars but 9-10. From people who purchased them from other players with plat they likely farmed with VV or another 3rd party program. Or they sat there for months to learn the baz/barter system and plan to not have to have a real job off of there sales of 55% priced krono's. (btw if this last part was the case then DPG/DBG would have to be having some serous sales figures for krono purchases) So why do Krono's exist to DPG/DBG simple, it was a way to get a cut of the money made off people farming plat to sell to players. They couldn't beat the plat farmers who then sold plat online so they decided to make it where for most they would get a cut when a player wanted a decent hit of pp in game.

So to me and I do believe the statements above, to say that VV players and the RG community wouldn't matter to DPG/DBG's bottom line. Honestly i think were at least 1/4th of their revenue streams. Not to mention those who buy 6+ expansions a year, 6+ subs for the year, and all of the other things that you all bring to the game. If they don't want your money then why have they been taking it? Why buy out SOE?
 
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In every accounting system in the world once they have your money its revenue to them. But some people just refuse to believe it.


Why would it be a liability. They cant lose money on it, they dont owe anyone anything(no matter how many people attempt to claim otherwise), and the second that its purchased its provided the value that they claim for it. Its straight revenue pure and simple.

Knightly and I took it to PM and kicked it around to not disrupt the thread. I never once compared it gift cards nor ever thought of that as an example. When you collect a payment you absolutely cannot ALWAYS declare it as recognized revenue as you have an obligation to meet certain performance requirements - at least if you are applying GAAP like a normal company. And every CFO I’ve ever worked with is very careful with their teams about when and how to recognize revenue - despite payments being collected earlier in the process.

Regardless of all that and I appreciate Knightly’s thread (lot of good info in there) there is still implications on how they recognize the revenue against the internal product for profit - so there’s a different type of implication for the devs. It would venture to guess they attribute krono to which game its consumed in since that ultimately will drive profitability. If so the original point I was trying to make was that people think the consumption of krono for boxed chars isn’t helpful - which is absolutely not true.
 
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I may have missed it, apologies if I did... have we considered an open dialog with DBG about opening a MQ2 server? Ban it on every other server but duplicate the FV server with MQ2 allowed. Three gains for DBG... First, the charge to transfer toons to the new server, consider it our penance, and it becomes among the top revenue generating servers they have. Second, the loyalty and activity of the MQ2 community. Third, they've satisfied every complaint received from the Nancy's and they look like the hero.

It's this or development needs to shift focus to Emu's.
 
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I may have missed it, apologies if I did... have we considered an open dialog with DBG about opening a MQ2 server? Ban it on every other server but duplicate the FV server with MQ2 allowed. Three gains for DBG... First, the charge to transfer toons to the new server, consider it our penance, and it becomes among the top revenue generating servers they have. Second, the loyalty and activity of the MQ2 community. Third, they've satisfied every complaint received from the Nancy's and they look like the hero.

It's this or development needs to shift focus to Emu's.
This is what I would like to see personally. Understanding that everyone plays differently and I am sure some MQ users would not want to leave their server, but if it's moving to a MQ server or having the risk on banning I would take the MQ server.

I dislike not being able to assist fellow players for fear of being reported. Would be easier to be social if I knew the server was MQ friendly.
 
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Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the jail server term, I've been away from EQ for a while. I'm thinking paid transfers to, no transfers off (I assume that's where the jail term comes from?), possibly even subs required for each account so DBG gains more than is lost.

I'm not aware of what drama their would be... maybe I make the mistake of making presumptions based on my own experiences... I guess I've always viewed MQ2 users to be more the loner type than those seeking drama.
 
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Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the jail server term, I've been away from EQ for a while. I'm thinking paid transfers to, no transfers off (I assume that's where the jail term comes from?), possibly even subs required for each account so DBG gains more than is lost.

I'm not aware of what drama their would be... maybe I make the mistake of making presumptions based on my own experiences... I guess I've always viewed MQ2 users to be more the loner type than those seeking drama.

Jail Server

--Taz
 
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Knightly and I took it to PM and kicked it around to not disrupt the thread. I never once compared it gift cards nor ever thought of that as an example. When you collect a payment you absolutely cannot ALWAYS declare it as recognized revenue as you have an obligation to meet certain performance requirements - at least if you are applying GAAP like a normal company. And every CFO I’ve ever worked with is very careful with their teams about when and how to recognize revenue - despite payments being collected earlier in the process.

Regardless of all that and I appreciate Knightly’s thread (lot of good info in there) there is still implications on how they recognize the revenue against the internal product for profit - so there’s a different type of implication for the devs. It would venture to guess they attribute krono to which game its consumed in since that ultimately will drive profitability. If so the original point I was trying to make was that people think the consumption of krono for boxed chars isn’t helpful - which is absolutely not true.
Chris Wilson talks about this a little in baseclast podcast for Path of Exile in relation to micro transactions and how they spread the revenue in their financials.
 
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Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the jail server term, I've been away from EQ for a while. I'm thinking paid transfers to, no transfers off (I assume that's where the jail term comes from?), possibly even subs required for each account so DBG gains more than is lost.

I'm not aware of what drama their would be... maybe I make the mistake of making presumptions based on my own experiences... I guess I've always viewed MQ2 users to be more the loner type than those seeking drama.
Not everyone is convinced that this would end up being a "jail server."

The closest approximation that we have is Rizlona. Especially in its early days, Rizlona was a great server to use MQ. People were generally friendly with each other, and almost everyone was using some type of automation. I remember needing a piece for my SK's Greenmist, and this dude running a full raid force let me follow along and loot until I got the piece. Of course, there were bad actors, but I never experienced any of them, and neither did any of the friends I played with. It was mostly just friendly people that wanted to play multiple toons.

The caveat is that it's not like everyone using MQ played on Rizlona when it launched. Some true jerks weren't there, but they might be if we had this dedicated server.

I don't have as much skin in this game as most people here. I don't play EQ all the time, and I regularly take weeks/months off to do other things. So I'm more inclined to follow along with whatever the rest of the community wants, but my personal preference would be a dedicated MQ server. I'd be okay with it being a paid server as long as it's still treated like a regular server as far as support goes.
 

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