Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (2 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Sic]

I think we should keep to what RG is about.

multiboxing in everquest with QoL life tools in a way that is not disruptive and doesn't include active hacks - this happens with or without dbg "being on board" - that doesn't change.

continue to work towards additional safeguards for MacroQuest and specifically RedGuides users, and encourage behaviors that also help minimize/mitigate/assuage "attention".

I think it is very important that all the work done at RG over the years to be "accepted", however it is received by the general eq or dbg, is still kept with genuine honest efforts. I wouldn't have joined this community otherwise.

meaning all the calls for "Open on TrueBox, bring active hacks, burn Everquest down" that are going to come are going to be a downvote from me.

Please for all that is holy - keep the tinfoil out of this thread.

 

[an_image]

Red & Team

1. Kudos to all our dev team for reaching out to the community
2. In parallel tracks: create a backchannel with DBG to understand what's driving this and derive alternatives...maybe even a happy path to some sort of accepted solution
3. On the other track: move to hide and or increase detection protection. I'm well aware that this avenue is sort of a tit for tat escalation...but if they're adamant about closing the doors...then we've got to find a way to keep the windows and back door open. Like many here ... eq without mq/vv/ctwn plugins suuucks..

Just my two cents.

 

[ascensi0n]

I'll begin by stating that I heavily disagree with everyone who says they want to just keep going "as-is" and enjoy the game until they can't play anymore (i.e. suspended and added to the watch list or ultimately banned). You're merely accepting the fact that you're playing Russian roulette, which is a game I personally don't find enjoyable. As someone who's likely in the hall of fame of most accounts lost due to permaban, I can assure you that I'm intimately familiar with how it plays out.

The obvious answer from my perspective (computer security professional) is to spend more time researching and developing anti-detection mechanisms. My ideas are as follows:

• Research how detections are likely happening, research those detection methods, as well as how others have historically defeated them, and develop mechanisms to harden the payload against those methods.
  • Protecting against polymorphic cheat codes in video games
  • Valve Anti-Cheat Pattern Detection Mitigation
  • Valve-Anti-Cheat-VAC-Bypass-Methods
• Develop a polymorphic engine for MacroQuest.
• Develop a metamorphic engine for MacroQuest.
• Modify your behavior in-game to mitigate being manually reported by other players.
• Have fun

As far as MQ on TrueBox TLPs, I think that's not a great idea as it's likely to cause more EQ community upset, and likely to invoke a knee-jerk reaction against the MQ community as a whole.

Back into the woodwork for me. Cheers!

Edit: I also really like the idea of a MQ EMU server, however that would take a ton of work to implement the missing expansions. If the work was to be done however, the administrative team would be exposing themselves to serious legal risk from EG7.

 

[taz6two]

I don’t know why I am so reluctant to reply to this thread. Hoping I am not down voted to Fippy I guess.

The Bad, A few things that are certain:

• Darkpaw Games owns Everquest and you (we) are not entitled to anything.
• Raising up against Dark Paw will get you nothing but probably suspended or banned quicker and draw more unwanted attention to the rest of the MQ communities.
• Asking MQ users, RG’s or other, to play a certain way is never going to work. People will play how every they want to play. No one can or should ask others to behave a certain way and I have never seen an honor system among a larger group of anonymous players ever work, no matter how simple a task may be.
• And lastly, your feelings on whether you think what your doing is cheating or not is irrelevant. It’s cheating to the only people that matter in this case, which is Darkpaw.

Honestly, in my opinion there are only a few things we can do:

• Continue working on humanizing the game mechanics around plugins, macros, Lua’s and other scripts in general.
• Continue working on anonymizers and evade tools like Posse, MQSay, GTFO and yes, even afktools causes see post #3 above.
• Keep collection data on those willing to talk about what happened leading up to the suspension or ban. Cause maybe they just don’t like endgame raiders or people in blue dye armor or who knows. But we will never know if we don’t care enough to gather the data.
• Keep trying to open a line of communication with Darkpaw no matter how much they ignore/avoid it. Somehow, we need them to see our side, the quality-of-life enhancements that RG/MQ brings to us. Maybe one day they will surprise us.

Remember, in the end, they have all the logs they need, they are not dumb or lazy. If they wanted us gone we would be gone. Personally I think they just want us to be quite and not obvious.

--Taz

 

[WillardJ85]

Personally I am vehemently against any sort of escalation, especially when it comes to truebox TLPs -- I honestly believe the only people that want this are selfish players wanting to RMT. I think that we should continue to make detection as difficult as possible, and we should stay true to the values we have now. Escalation will 100% end badly, where the second they find a new way to detect MQ2 useage everyone just gets a direct perma ban (this is assuming we can eventually figure out what is detecting us now). The only way we'll ever survive in Everquest is to prove that we're NOT looking to actively hack their game, and that we respect things like Truebox -- TLPs are their cashcows and waging war on that seems incredibly shortsighted and deeply foolish. Let's do our best to show them that we're not the enemy, and that we are willing to engage/cooperate to hopefully find a compromise that works for both sides.

 

[hytiek]

This topic will affect us differently as some of us have never been suspended, some have multiple times, and some have lost an account or more.

Personally, I have never changed my play style, and when I finally get suspended, I will continue to play the toons which are untouched as I normally have. My motto has always been with folks: play while you can or don't.

I do not believe in any kind of retribution. We chose to do what they don't like. Risk vs Reward and I'd say I'm way ahead of their game.

 

[VorpalChicken]

Personally I think the days of MQ on live servers is coming to an end, on the server I was playing on, it had a fair few people running bot groups, after the last 2 ban waves the majority of spots where they were are now ghost zones, not all used RG either, i found out, after managing to contact a few people I knew.

With the programming talent RG has, I think it's time you moved focus to doing a RG Emu server, personally from what I've seen of the stuff you guys have been doing, your time would be better spent coming up with an enhanced emu server, there's plenty around atm and I've actually now transitioned to playing on Project Lazarus (which is pretty sweet so far, a couple of small niggles but nothing that stops me from having a to of fun) and most importantly RG mq2 works on it.

Times change, and we need to change with them, I'm personally done giving any money in any form to Daybreak now, when the MQ community leaves a large percentage of the servers will be gone.

 

[skaffloctz]

I work in technology in Silicon Valley and have done so for years, including stints at a few startups and some company's you know (I'm a computer scientist/software engineer). It's not about technology, its not about the user experience, its not the cool factor, at the end of the day for companies like DBG its a business and its always about the money, particularly in the C-suite. I think with the new ownership, the current EQ leadership has been given a bit of free reign to go after "cheaters" in the hopes that it will increase revenue by returning Everquest to its heyday and if we only get ride of cheaters/botters, gamers will flock back to Everquest and revenues will increase because obviously botters/cheaters are what has been driving declines in subscriptions. When the acquisition occurred, incoming ownership at EG7 were probably pitched this approach by JChan and her ilk and were given the green light so as to be given a chance to see how it goes.

I disagree, I think that this will not happen (revenue increase). In fact, I think players like me who have/had limited playtime and who's best gaming experience in EQ is running my own 6 box crew who abides by the common "play nice policy" are the sort of constant revenue streams that per subscription software businesses would crave. With that in mind I think the only real pressure to be applied is a financial one. This is what businesses understand at the end of the day. With that in mind, after catching my 1st suspension in 22 plus years and reading the writing on the wall I cancelled all 10 of my gold accounts. I see no reason to give business to a company who clearly does not want my business.

I think if you read the tea leaves this may be a viable approach but it will take time. I ask myself the question that I'm sure others have asked. Why only suspensions? If the VV and its ilk are so detrimental to the game, why only start with suspensions, why not go nuclear and just outright ban anyone found using automation? Because they want the revenue. From my perspective why on earth then should I pay for accounts I cannot use due to the ongoing crackdown? Its a bit of a catch 22 for them - piss me off and people like me and we go away along with our large monthly outlay, don't run me out of town and the white knights and vocal minority who whing about automation might go away with their single account.

It may take a couple of quarters each to see revenues contract. At that point if it does, the the people in the C-suite for EG7 will have some uncomfortable questions to put to the leadership at DPG if they are at all competent as to what they are doing. Its also possible that the amount of subscribers like myself (multiple accounts, buys kronos etc to feed my bot army, always buys the expansions, etc) are a minority of subscribers and trying to hit DPG in the wallet isn't viable, only they have the numbers - the fact that they aren't going all out ban tells me they need us financially and in the long run if financial pressure is applied they will have to come to an accommodation. In any case, in keeping with the times I'm applying my own financial sanctions against DBG (though I will keep subscribed to Redguides in the hopes you all come up with a solution.) For now I'm replaying Fallout....

 

[Sum1]

Are you confident you can write in protection against what is happening?

If so, quietly implement it. Don't engage, don't make a big announcement, etc. Just tell the community (after testing it) and push the implementation live.

It's clear that DPG isn't interested in living with MQ since I'm not even sure what a "dumbed down" version of MQ looks like. That's what VV is. Original MQ had shitloads of active hacks that did all kinds things that we don't implement here.

This is the other issue.... how can WE implement honest, open changes with DPG while others in the community are like "FU YOLO" and warp around/do other dumb shit? How do you distinguish us from them? I don't think you do, which is why I think quietly developing protections is really the only thing I think works. If you can't do that, then tell us so we can all go play other games.

 

[Szazor]

TLDR: Dont change anything - Just try to be invisible.

The absolute Best thing about Redguides is the Community. A big part of that community is the integrity we hold ourselves too.

While acknowledging that we are breaking the EULA...and technically YES we are cheating, Im sure most of us stand against active hacks and game breaking exploits, and not allowing playing on TrueBox is the ethical thing to do.

I think most of us agree that we are against anything that impacts other users experience of the game.

I just want to play EQ. Not to make Real life money, I do not want to upset anyone or impact on their ability to experience the game as it was designed.

I do want to have Autofollow that works, a guild portal that is easy to use, auto navigation for me and my group, and an auto accept system for trusted toons.
Nothing spectacular there...just QOL stuff that is not game breaking.

QoL stuff shouldn't be bannable - but the guild I was in was using a Loot Auctioning Bot for Auctioning the loot from raids.
We killed the Big Boss and linked the loot to the Bot.

The folks in the raid would send tells to the bot with a DKP Bid and it would determine who the winner was based on attendance and DKP etc.
It was fast an efficient and with multiple bots it would auction multiple things at once - and 100% just a QOL tool.

When the person associated with this loot auction bot was Banned - not suspended - others (Family) also quit in response. The end result was the guild imploding and now the guild struggle to kill Zlandicar.

So, I don't know if there is any solution to the "Cheating" Stigma that is caused by using RG, but I do know that I try to remain invisble.

1. Don't talk about Fight Club
2. Don't play for 40 hrs a day in the same spot farming hDex Augs. You are asking for a Banhammer.
3. Don't use Overseer. (Tin Foil Hat advises that they can probably see that you do Overseer every 12 hrs like clockwork!)
4. Don't use Feedme - especially if you are just sitting in the Guild Lobby afk
5. Make a Pause ALL (/boxr pause) when you run to the make no 2, or make a cuppa tea.
6. Don't get into fights with people in EQ.
7. Clean up your mess.
8. Don't be impatient - you will Max AA soon enough - no need to let it run overnight.

There is nothing to say that i wont still get suspended or banned, but I will try to continue to remain invisible and try not to upset anyone.

I wouldn't want to see RG change our Ethics - since DBG is clearly at war with people who do the stupid things.

We can only hope that after all the stupid users have been banned, then the remaining people who just want to play the game - solo in a group of 54 will be left alone.

 

[dlaevid2]

I am far from the smartest guy in my neighborhood.. and not sure exactly what you are trying to get from this. But I will throw a couple things out there.

In March of 2021 you posted some chat you had with JChen. Maybe its time to follow up with that or maybe you have. They have to come to realization that at this stage of the game MQ or other hacks will never go away so how can we co-exist. Almost all of the hard core passionate players left in the game are using automation. While I don't care for farmers running 24/7 and I don't like camp whores who never move the fact someone using automation to skip past hundreds of real life hours to get toons to 120 and get the 9 billion ridiculous AA for SK and Shaman does not ever bother me. If they want automation to go away then they need to fix EQ for current state of the game.


Your post from 2021:
I spoke with JChan and Dreamweaver and they gave me permission to report on the entire contents of our conversation, as they find these talks end up public information one way or another. Here are the major points covered:

1) They confirmed the February ban wave was *not* targeted at RedGuides, nor was it MQ2-specific. It covered a range of software from a range of sites. What's the deal lately? Monthly hits for last 4 months along with a hit thrown in last week. What are they gaining by hitting so hard 23 years later.

2) They are surprisingly familiar with the Macroquest scene and what makes RedGuides unique. They're well versed in popular macros and plugins. Of course they are. Don't really think they are not using stuff and on these websites all the time do we?

3) They have a broad definition of botting which includes nearly all automation, but also recognize gray areas within that definition. What’s actionable comes down to their core message: does it give a significant advantage? What advantage? The real advantage are not looking for group for hours ( can they fix that?) and on a lighter scale being able to keep all the loot for your toons. Yes.. I understand that you can program to your hearts content and make it do better. At the same time I would challenge any automated player to Out DPS me playing manually on any raid encounter. No automation I have used has even been close. Yes as a group of 6 I can imagine not getting 6 good players and gaining some benefit. But I am not getting any result a group of 6 decent players can achieve.

4) When asked what caused them to punish some of our community members, they said they can’t say exactly as it would expose their detection method, but throughout the talk they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible. When asked what we could specifically do to avoid another banwave, they instead wanted us to focus on the big picture: stop giving boxed toons a significant advantage over human players. I can see group reaction or bot reaction to start an encounter being an advantage. Maybe this is of concern. But as I posted above I would take 6 good players over automation, but I don't have hundreds of hours to find them.


Anyway. Not trying to be closed minded or anything on what I said. Just some thoughts on last years memo that maybe I would like to see RG challenge them with to gain some insight / perspective and maybe some compromise that benefits everyone. AFK'rs who 24/7 things(cant meet an afk check), bot farmers who hold camps for more than 8 hours, effective hacking (think plat duping), or anyone who trains/is not eq friendly with everyone ( being very vague there) should get hit with up to and including bans. People just minding their own business, being a good active member of the community maybe a suspension if its being overdone. But Banning because of that is simply to much. There has to be a common group after 23 years to find.

my2cprs

 

[redfox]

On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.

 

[L8erGator]

One thing that I think is important as a response is don't let the negative attitude about MQ from DPG dissuade the powers that be at this site from continuing to try to have constructive dialogue with DPG. It's easy to have an emotional response and try to sever those ties. I think trying to foster some communication similar to Holly and DW days is healthy and should be continuously encouraged even if it's met with resistance on DPGs side. That may change and I think it's an important bridge to keep open and not entirely burn. This isn't to say this is the current state or what's happening, dialogue may well be happening, but just throwing it out there.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

1. Continue to gather information as best we can.
2. Continue to attempt conversation with Darkpaw or anyone who might have backdoor access to their thinking.
3. Create a new project to emulate a proficient alt-tab style of boxing. ISBoxer on steroids?

 

[Maskoi]

Let's pretend its 2004 again and DPG is the enemy. Let's re-learn using it can get you banned at any time. Protect yourself.

1. If you see people using MQ stupidly or obviously, report them.
2. Check and answer your tells. If you missed one just say you lost it in battle spam.
3. Don't camp live zones in the newest expansion bogarting named 24/7 for 3 days straight.
4. If idiots, self appointed EQ police, are watching you ask them to leave. If they don't log.
5. You don't need to be max level and AA's in 2 days. If you afk do it in old out of the way zones. Your toons will max out eventually.
6. Don't MQ on True Box and TLP. The normal players are the loudest whiniest bunch of cry babies in gaming. DPG listens to vocal minority of complaints of PAYING customers.
7. Play smart. Think about what you are doing with MQ. If it interrupts or ruins other people's fun you are going to get reported.

1st rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.
2nd rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.

I saw I am repeating a few things that Szazor wrote early I just read the entire thread but you get the idea.

 

[Aipoc76]

If it wasn't for MQ, i would of quit a long time ago. The fun in the game for me is the coding, Creating my own little simplified AI game robots, is a lot of fun. It has it challenges, but when it all works right it's worth it. DPG has gotten hundreds if not thousands off me over the years due to MQ. They would be absolutely stupid to kill this community. And to be honest all they should really care about is their bottom line. What gets them more money.

I sure do hope some of the key leaders make some sort of agreement, as losing MQ would put a big hole in my boring life. I would be forced to find some new game that's too easy, rewards the losers with gear, and i can turn my keyboard upside down and stand on it and win. Oh wait that WoW.. already beat that game.

But to answer the question of this thread, what should we do? Red have you attempted at just talking to them, seeing what their demands are, is there any wiggle room, is there some sort of accord that can be struck. Dialog is the first step, and if that's not been taken, you need to try and arrange a meeting with the powers that be, Here's a starting list. Sorry numbers not included.

• Jennifer Chan. Head of Studio at Darkpaw Games.
• Rick Randolph.
• Melissa Comeau. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.
• Robyn Vallee. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.

** Talking points could be:
- Plugins they hate.
- Concessions you can make for truebox and abiding to their wishes.
- Guaranteeing no active hacks or game breaking abilities / code will be offered.
- Maximum allowed toons to be boxed by 1 user. (this should be a no brainer, more accounts owned = more $$ they get).
- Protections you can implement in the code to ensure no unauthorised plugins are used.

Just a few brainstorming ideas.


And if all else fails, Start looking at how to set up a RG EMU server that's ran and controlled and subbed to by this community.

 

[Zebadiah]

Well Red I have been impressed with the folks here. I like the different stuff that can be use in EQ and that it is constantly being updated as the game is either fixed or new content added. As for the suspensions I look at it this way ....... I enjoy the game and with the content here lets me go further in the game. With that said I choose to use the different things here in the game and know that it violates the terms of agreement so if I get suspended then I will take the suspension and move forward and continue to use the things and if I get suspended again I will also move forward (just be more aware of things). If it have to start all over again I will.

Zeb

 

[Diebold666]

Red you helped build a fantastic community. Thank you!

No revenge, just inaction.

I'm cancelling all 18 of my subscriptions. EDIT: I just cancelled all 18 subscriptions - looks like suspension is over until next one.

I'm parking my toons in their favorite locations. My necromancer will be chilling in Paineel, watching Noclin's familiar attack lowbies that brave starting in Paineel instead of Crescent City. Oh wait.... no one does any more since you get level 12 by picking up an item while invis and turning it in CC.

I'll be doing my part to turn my tumbleweed server into a ghost sever by not playing any toons there. Me, who actively participated in general chat when someone would ask questions, would announce loot drops from my group that we didn't need in /ooc (or general if it was an epic or chest piece). I'd answer questions about quests and lore as best as I knew even when no one else responded for 15 to the user who asked. I'd see someone come to a camp I'm at, I would ask them if they want it and move on, or if they need help with another mob in the zone and can't quite break into the camp. And what was left of the economy I added by having twelve traders, many who specialized in defiant gear for people levelling alts so they could play with friends, as well as tradeskill items that were a pain to get. Needed 1000 raxil fish to get cooking to 300, I was the cheapest available and there when you had the plat but didn't have the time. Now, they can enjoy the silence.

Someone get me a fucking halo.

I have a few ftp accounts that I used for dev work that I might fire up as the urge to code strikes me. But for the time being, I'm playing FFXIV instead of EQ.

I've been a pirate since the sneakernet days of trading C64 programs on floppies in the late 80's. So yes, I cheated, as did EQ. I'll be back when this gets stabilized, but my last break was three years... after quitting EQ because of WoW's beta in 2004. So we'll see how this goes.

Me playing Everquest:


So yeah, CHIMpS won't see it's full glory of a searchable database of player housing with automated valet keeping inventory organized for a guild or person across a neighborhood. TheOneButton (anti-Button Master) won't see fruition until things stabilize for us "grey hat" cheaters.

 

[Hazzard]

Like a lot of people here i have been playing EQ for Over 20 years. When i started the only internet was dial up. I played up until Ragefire or Phinny was released before i started using MQ. I knew people that used it when i was playing on TP hacking under the world attacking the mobs without the mobs being able to hit them. I knew people that warped around the zone killed names while groups were clearing to the camp. I will never use that fucking program it's a so unfair and garbage is what i told them.

I did my time in EQ alt tabbing running 6-8 toons on one comp and 2-3 on a second comp playing 6 toons on a Truebox with 6 computers and my wife playing another 3 i spend money on computers so i could box on true box I alt tabbed for 10-15 years i was good at it then you know what happen? I got old lol

Fast forward to now after finding RG talking to people in game when i was on Phinny seeing post here from Sic, CWTN and so many other people that contribute to the RG Community the amount of Time effort and love you all put in to RG is just amazing to see and experience.

Do i think using RG is cheating? no i don't. It's not like Joe who sits and cry's that i'm using RG can't come download it and use it too. It's not like it's hidden away and you need to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for it. It's here for anyone to come get an use.

It sucks with people getting suspended it really does i had some friends hit in the last 2 or 3 waves now on Rizlona one was told just "cheating" the other was told "use of 3ed party software" the only thing he was running was MQ.

I don't know the answer on how to fix this, shit i can't even edit my ini files right lol.

As Forest Gump would say Im not a smart man Jenny but i do know what love is. If you open up and attack EQ to prove a point your gonna find out very fast what love is not and thats not the answer.

1. Try and talk to the Devs at EQ see what can be worked out if that's an option see what they will and won't allow use of it anything.
2. Work on a way to hide it so they can't detect it if that is how they are finding out and doing banning.
3. ride the mother till the wheels fall off like i'm doing and enjoy the ride.

If RG goes away i will be gone with it i won't play EQ without RG ever again i just can't do it and won't do it you guys here have spoiled me way to much to go without no MQ the game just isn't fun for me without it and after all Games are supposed to be fun.

I have seen it said here a few times that RG provides the tools for people to AFK bot and farm and to just take them away. IT's also said many many many times over and over by the people that make them plugins they are not intended for you to turn them on and walk away from your computer. It is my understanding that the programs are intended to be used while your sitting at your computer working, reading the news or whatever not to be used and go to work for 8 hours.

If you made it this far your a true MVP Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

 

[MadCow13]

I am a convert, I am one of the old players from 1999 who despised anything MQ or cheats, exploits, etc. I boxed alt-tab, then used isboxer. As the server population dwindled and our guild died, friends quit, you get the picture. I decided to say "screw it" let me try RedGuides and see how it works, needless to say, I am hooked and will not play EQ without it. That brings me to the point, seeing all the suspension waves, some people hit multiple times, I fortunately never was touched but decided after 23 years of playing EQ, it was time to retire from the game. I unsubbed my 12 accounts and made a few in-game friends rich in platinum and Kronos. I wanted to kick myself for waiting for so long to try RedGuides, but also thank the entire community for the fun since I joined. It is truly a great community.

 

[Silverback]

Here are my personal views ...

1) Forget about any communication lines with DPG as a means of finding some compromise. We know what their stance is, and we know that the only form of MQ they would not target and attack as cheating is basically ISB, which defeats the whole purpose. Pursuing any form of compromise or acceptance is a total waste of time in my opinion.

2) As much as I hate to say this, I feel part of the issue may have come from what might be lower barriers to entry that RG has created over the years, via guides and videos created by good people and for good reasons. In short, MQ might have become too easy to get set up and use, and has become too visible in recent years, attracting what DPG might consider an unacceptable percentage of use and something current leadership could no longer turn a blind eye to. This is a hard one for me, because the core of this community is about helping and sharing with others, as well as creating plugins and macros that make things easier not harder, but that might come with an unforeseen cost that we may be seeing now. For me, this means no more guides, explanations and example videos on places like YouTube, with the goal of less visibility rather than more. Sic will probably strongly disagree with this point of view, but it's just the way I see it. I think MQ has no choice but to operate from the shadows as much as possible.

3) Update popular macros and plugins to not allow unattended gameplay, or at least make it much more difficult to accomplish, if something like this is even technically possible. Yeah, that means stuff like MQ2Grind (among other things) gets toasted, but I personally think it could go a long way to reducing exposures. Sure, those that are determined will always find ways around it, but I bet many won't. It's one thing to say "be at the keyboard". It's another to make it much harder to accomplish it via the code. Again ... less exposure and player reports should be the ultimate goal here.

4) As much as it can be done by the great volunteer developers here at RG, continue to find ways to implement measures that avoid process and other forms of possible detection. Yes I know that this is a huge cat and mouse game, but in my opinion its a game worth pursuing if someone(s) is able and willing to try and if it's even possible at this point. Any measures taken should be via an update, with no notes, announcements or fanfare.

 

[Psy]

I'm in agreement with most folks I see posting here that this is an amazing community and w/o it, I would just prefer not to play. Even though I always prefer a group and I only raid with one toon and no software, the options this software opens up makes the game fun and enjoyable for us players that have a life outside EQ and family commitments. That being said, I do think the following;

1) Certainly try to work on ways to prevent detection, but I imagine you have already been doing that and it seems impossible to me to prevent them from detecting a series of keystrokes so it's likely not going to happen (but I'm no software engineer)
2) Definitely try to reach out to those that will speak with you at DPG, but again I'm afraid that may be a moot point now. They have definitely shown us for almost 5 months now that they do not want 3rd party software and as stated, they even made a point of mentioning it in their 2022 roadmap. Hard to believe they would reverse the decision now or even hint to you that it will stop in time, but it never hurts to try.

There is lots of speculation about how much of the EQ community uses 3rd party software, but if they really are going to be as strict as they indicate, then loss of revenue is the only way I can see them being willing to make concessions. If they are ever going to consider that, it will likely be to those who reached out to them trying to find a positive solution.

I kind of feel like the main issue is with the 24/7 play, the plat/krono farming/sales outside of the game and the constant camping of certain spots for hours/days on end. All of which I think is wrong. While there may be ways to limit time played, you still can't change who is behind the keyboard and there are always going to be those that use this software or others like it as a business or act like an ass when they use it. I imagine that is why DPG is taking the hard stance of NO 3rd party is acceptable.

 

[Redbot]

Do I get a prize for the most disliked idea?

I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.

 

[Sifter228]

Half measures avail nothing. Whatever is decided. War, diplomacy, whichever, make it 100%.

 

[Sifter228]

Personally I am vehemently against any sort of escalation, especially when it comes to truebox TLPs -- I honestly believe the only people that want this are selfish players wanting to RMT. I think that we should continue to make detection as difficult as possible, and we should stay true to the values we have now. Escalation will 100% end badly, where the second they find a new way to detect MQ2 useage everyone just gets a direct perma ban (this is assuming we can eventually figure out what is detecting us now). The only way we'll ever survive in Everquest is to prove that we're NOT looking to actively hack their game, and that we respect things like Truebox -- TLPs are their cashcows and waging war on that seems incredibly shortsighted and deeply foolish. Let's do our best to show them that we're not the enemy, and that we are willing to engage/cooperate to hopefully find a compromise that works for both sides.

Per this thread and the conversation with DP leadership. We are "hacking" and even isboxer is out of bounds. So no form of VV light is going to fly. We can't "give up enough" "Retreat enough" to satisfy them. in my opinion.

 

[Bukktoof]

There is nothing to be gained by becoming "hostile". It won't go well.

I have never been suspended or banned but i think its because of how i play. I'm not one of the guys running a 54 man raid, I have 3 characters i basically roll with and use mercs to fill out my group. I do have 6 accounts but i really only log them in when i need 6 real players. I don't have billions of gold nor hundreds of Krono. I'm a pretty low key player who stays out of everyone elses way. I don't have a trader in the Bazaar with ridiculous numbers of farmed items for sale.
I do afk grind aa's and farm tradeskill mats ... but I NEVER EVER EVER do it in a spot that has quest mobs/drops or other points of interest that might be blocking other players from completing things. I ONLY farm these type of things while i am actively at the keyboard playing.

I think the best way to stay out of trouble is to simply not cause any grief to other players who might be inclined to report you. When you are hogging up the best exp spots in the game with multiple powerleveling crews you are going to get a LOT of negative attention. That guy sitting in pok who can't find a group is going to look sideways at you when you are leveling entire raid forces with max aa's and gear they cant get.

As a community we HAVE to figure out how to do our thing without causing problems.

I first started this game when Kunark was released and Ive come and gone several times over the years but this game and UO are still my favorites .... I always come back to them. However I don't have the free time i did when i first started playing these games and I honestly wouldn't play them anymore without programs like MQ helping me out. I hope I never get hit with a ban stick because it would be the end of me playing this game.

I honestly think most problems come when other players start complaining about us. We need to be invisible so that is how i think future efforts should be aimed.

 

[Knightly]

Perhaps I explained poorly. My opinion has no basis in what DPG does or does not do. More bans, less bans, all out war of escalation from their side, it doesn’t matter. I personally don’t care what DPG does. I do care about the health of the game, in general, though. And I think the TLPs do bring a lot of money in. So I feel like we’re acting in good faith to honor the wishes there (even if they might feel I’m acting in bad faith by not honoring their wishes in general).

I never agreed with the stance that if you don’t provoke them and give them all your user information, they won’t bite. They will do what they do, regardless of my stance. But I understand their intent with Truebox is to have less people boxing and I’m willing to facilitate that. The flip side of that is I will also still working on making sure we don’t get caught elsewhere. Because I will do what I do, regardless of their stance.

 

[Restina]

I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.

Because RG is authorized for usage on Live? It’s not okay on either server which is what always just confused me.

Especially since now that we’re legit open source like we should be and anyone can do 10-20 lines of copy/paste and be working on any truebox server. We’re not actually preventing anything instead we’re sending those people to shady compiles.

Like I said the discussion is fairly moot but it’s never made sense since we aren’t a truebox bypass.

 

[ChatWithThisName]

I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.

Not that I'm advocating for the use of truebox. Simply to point out that it would only be dishonorable if there was an agreement in place. Which there is not. Even if there was an agreement in place, what would we be getting in exchange for agreeing to such a thing? Surely it's not to be left to our own devices on the alternately available servers.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.

It's not a stretch considering Redguides / Macroquest doesn't support truebox that the plugins that are exclusive to redguides also wouldn't support truebox. If the stance changes in the future then changes would be made to accomodates said changes for the allowance. Though I'm not the one you'd need to discuss it with as I'm just playing follow the leader. Though I do think it's a bad idea to poke the proverbial bear.

One thing that I think is important as a response is don't let the negative attitude about MQ from DPG dissuade the powers that be at this site from continuing to try to have constructive dialogue with DPG.

A constructive dialog would be nice. There was an attempt made. Based on what I understood of the conversation I'm in agreement with dlaevid2 that the information obtained from the conversation was vague and alluded to the essential eradication of MQ as we know it and leaning towards creating an entirely different utility that exists in one form or another already (isboxer style?). I did not see the dialog with them as productive in the sense that at the end of it all I felt I had no better direction on what would satisfy them given the nature of MQ than I did prior to the conversation.

 

[Redbot]

Just to check things out I went to Project Lazarus yesterday and downloaded the old client, set up things, etc - and I can tell you from that experience, that the EMU community needs some attention from Redguides. I know there's an EMU version of MQ2 - and I know MQ is working on a new version of MQ for EMU, but beyond that, there is a LOT of work that could be captured and monetized and grown, which would help the community overall.

So one thing I think "we" could do as a community in light of the suspension bans is to show a bit of love to a community, that in some cases not only tolerates, but welcomes MQ with open arms, and it appears we treat them like red-haired stepchildren.

I've been thinking about this post for a week now and would like to hear more. It's probably worth a new thread. PM'ing you

 

[lumin]

Red, Sic, Knightly, CWTN, and all at RG - you guys are amazing and the impact to Rizlona for me (especially during covid) is hard to communicate in a public forum... Meant/means alot.

Some background in case Darkpaw reads this. I easily spent over $3-5K per year on the game. I would buy exp potions, mounts, expansions even pre-rizlona at the top tier for 6 toons...simply to support daybreak. For a long time I bought krono directly from the store also to support them, because I love EQ and I want to see it continue. I logged 1 or 2 tickets in 20 years of playing EQ, don't troll on forums or discord.

In other words from a business perspective I have about the highest CLV (customer lifetime value) and certainly one of the higher profit margins of any customer. Given I supported and helped run a guild, my network effects kept additional revenue engaged. The more boxers you have driving more drops the less each drop costs which aids more casuals gearing up to be able to raid with friends or even group content - i.e. they see progress.

That being said. I unsubbed my 18 accounts and stopped on 6 kr only accounts a few months ago.

This is for three reasons:

1). The time-outs / bans and fear of permabans made people quit simply because there are other options to spend thousands of dollars on.
2). EQ content changes very much after Omens in DoN with faction and Vish, and it seems to repeat over and over. It's just not that engaging for boxers.
3). The sentiment that many of us had that Jen Chan and others were rude and hostile to the player base who is paying for the game, including using words like "cheater" which is not only degrading but infantile. If you didn't want us boxing, why did you create rizlona to get thousands of dollars from us to then ban us?

My recommendations:

1). Continue your redguides subscription. Support the community.
2). Cancel EQ accounts, maybe go KR only. Buy from ECT.
3). Continue to engage with Darkpaw, do not threaten but share the concerns of the community.
4). Determine a business plan to monetize an EMU server up to omens (maybe a redhat to centos equivalent of lazarus or whatever EMU).
5). Do not make it cheap, if we could afford hundreds to thousands of USD per year, we can pay a bit for the EMU.
6). Fork / Restart that server back to classic each year.

 

[dewdew]

I may be misunderstanding the purpose of this thread so forgive me if so:

The way I see it, there is no difference in their eyes between RG build and the other "actives" builds. I respect that steps were taking to make this build more kosher in DBG eyes, but currently I do not see any benefit in it. I think a good first step would be removing the TLP limitations by adding those servers to the approved server list since it does nothing other than force individuals to reinject over and over (possibly causing detection issues?). This has no impact on the "spirit of trubox", as you still require individual machines per client. Accept the fact that what we do is not seen as harmless, risk vs reward, and its not a matter of "if" a suspension happens but "when".

Actives are bad. Trying to "seek revenge" on EQ is bad.

 

[Lidori]

re

dlaevid2's comments​

I am far from the smartest guy in my neighborhood.. and not sure exactly what you are trying to get from this. But I will throw a couple things out there.

In March of 2021 you posted some chat you had with JChen. Maybe its time to follow up with that or maybe you have. They have to come to realization that at this stage of the game MQ or other hacks will never go away so how can we co-exist. Almost all of the hard core passionate players left in the game are using automation. While I don't care for farmers running 24/7 and I don't like camp whores who never move the fact someone using automation to skip past hundreds of real life hours to get toons to 120 and get the 9 billion ridiculous AA for SK and Shaman does not ever bother me. If they want automation to go away then they need to fix EQ for current state of the game.


Your post from 2021:
I spoke with JChan and Dreamweaver and they gave me permission to report on the entire contents of our conversation, as they find these talks end up public information one way or another. Here are the major points covered:

1) They confirmed the February ban wave was *not* targeted at RedGuides, nor was it MQ2-specific. It covered a range of software from a range of sites. What's the deal lately? Monthly hits for last 4 months along with a hit thrown in last week. What are they gaining by hitting so hard 23 years later.

2) They are surprisingly familiar with the Macroquest scene and what makes RedGuides unique. They're well versed in popular macros and plugins. Of course they are. Don't really think they are not using stuff and on these websites all the time do we?

3) They have a broad definition of botting which includes nearly all automation, but also recognize gray areas within that definition. What’s actionable comes down to their core message: does it give a significant advantage? What advantage? The real advantage are not looking for group for hours ( can they fix that?) and on a lighter scale being able to keep all the loot for your toons. Yes.. I understand that you can program to your hearts content and make it do better. At the same time I would challenge any automated player to Out DPS me playing manually on any raid encounter. No automation I have used has even been close. Yes as a group of 6 I can imagine not getting 6 good players and gaining some benefit. But I am not getting any result a group of 6 decent players can achieve.

4) When asked what caused them to punish some of our community members, they said they can’t say exactly as it would expose their detection method, but throughout the talk they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible. When asked what we could specifically do to avoid another banwave, they instead wanted us to focus on the big picture: stop giving boxed toons a significant advantage over human players. I can see group reaction or bot reaction to start an encounter being an advantage. Maybe this is of concern. But as I posted above I would take 6 good players over automation, but I don't have hundreds of hours to find them.


Anyway. Not trying to be closed minded or anything on what I said. Just some thoughts on last years memo that maybe I would like to see RG challenge them with to gain some insight / perspective and maybe some compromise that benefits everyone. AFK'rs who 24/7 things(cant meet an afk check), bot farmers who hold camps for more than 8 hours, effective hacking (think plat duping), or anyone who trains/is not eq friendly with everyone ( being very vague there) should get hit with up to and including bans. People just minding their own business, being a good active member of the community maybe a suspension if its being overdone. But Banning because of that is simply to much. There has to be a common group after 23 years to find.

my2cprs

" they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible" - I've thought about this issue, super-human reaction times, at least 4 times a day since I started using MQ2 about a year ago. I'm not familiar with the nooks and crannies of MQ Next, but I would hope that it would not be TOO encrusted with legacy code to make this ask - insert random delays - a huge human resource hog. Just want to /bca //say ready and not have it instantly obvious that I'm botting.

I love using MQ and will <probably :P> not play if I can't use it. I've been suspended once for 7 days and that wasn't great fun, but I have plenty to do and read some good books and watched some Netflix. I CAN live without EQ, I just don't want to.

 

[krawdad]

One thing that's always confused me is a lot of people complain that others afk play too much, yet there are so many tools here that support afk play.
Maybe we should restrict afk as much as possible?
I know other MQ flavors exist and it won't stop the diehards out there.

 

[okert2675]

I would focus the energy and passion around identifying what they are going after. If its actions per minute or automation (like auto forage, etc) then we have to cut those off. If we figure out its purely the mq process is running, then I think we have to try and approach it from the standpoint of building these QOL features into the game. Tons of other games have the lazyfind features, auto pricing, buff management, combat stick, etc. Their competition games like wow have these addons as a feature. I think we'd have to pursue some collaborative effort for longevity or accept that youre playing on borrowed time for any one account. That collaborative effort might entail giving them authority on approved add ons, or providing them the hard work devs have done here for inclusion into their code. I mean there have been plenty of mq features that have shown up in game over the years (mercs, autocombine, melody, gina, etc)

 

[Phalanx]

We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

I've found it hard mentally to play with the bannening cloud hanging over me. I'd certainly be willing to pay more for a premium plugin solution.

 

[BobWeaver]

To me it feels like DBG is just responding to the player complaints. DBG responding to the customers that are so vocal against MQ users. Most of my suspensions can be traced through the logs to a complaining player.

Maybe DBG is just the parent trying to keep the kids from fighting and make them both happy. Unfortunately we are breaking the rules and are therefore being punished.

Is our fight actually against the non MQ users? If we satisfy them, does it make DBG back off? If so, how do we do that?

 

[Sic]

This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.

this is absolutely without question not what we want. prison servers don't work. even Holly mentioned this when we were all discussing making Rizlona possible.

 

[Jetanroth]

This topic will affect us differently as some of us have never been suspended, some have multiple times, and some have lost an account or more.

Personally, I have never changed my play style, and when I finally get suspended, I will continue to play the toons which are untouched as I normally have. My motto has always been with folks: play while you can or don't.

I do not believe in any kind of retribution. We chose to do what they don't like. Risk vs Reward and I'd say I'm way ahead of their game.

I couldn't agree with you more.

DPG makes the rules for EQ, it is their game, their RnD, thier money and that is their right to set any rules they want. Just like RG can set forum conduct rules here and delete peoples posts anytime they dont fit the rules. That is how shit works. If it works here on RG forums, what makes anyone think a $300,000,000 company doesn't get to make their own rules?

That being said, I will continue to gladly violate the EULA, break the rules, risk suspension, risk banning, risk losing 20 years worth of work on multiple accounts in order to ENJOY THE GAME MY WAY with my box crew.

I will never stop using MQ, I will never stop risking suspension, I know the consequences of that choice and I accept it completely.

 

[hotpocket]

There are two topics going on here a) what you can do b) what RG can do.

I whole heartedly agree with all the sentiments of taking responsibility yourself for the things you can control. That will be different things for people but anything that makes you less obvious and/or applies financial pressure to dpg I would support.

Regards what RG can do.
1) more can be done to encourage responsible play. Specifically, detection tools coming pre-configured by default in a best use setup for new users (so they don't miss /say /tells /ooc camp checks) and more visible tutorials for these tools.
2) general humanisation of VV. Specifically, random emotes between group members to mimic interaction. Have chars fidget, jump, duck, just do something. The option to engage a target at a random point in a mobs health %, you could even weight it for extra redcents. A random time delay before returning to camp. A random variation for a chars camp spot. And my no1 hate when I am running pullertank and that char will always return to camp before going off to pull, irrespective of my settings.

We, as a community, just need to get a bit better at being unseen.