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Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (4 Viewers)

Redbot

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I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:
  • When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
  • While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
  • We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.


EDIT & SUMMARY


If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried 😅. Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!
 
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hytiek

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This topic will affect us differently as some of us have never been suspended, some have multiple times, and some have lost an account or more.

Personally, I have never changed my play style, and when I finally get suspended, I will continue to play the toons which are untouched as I normally have. My motto has always been with folks: play while you can or don't.

I do not believe in any kind of retribution. We chose to do what they don't like. Risk vs Reward and I'd say I'm way ahead of their game.
 
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Well Red I have been impressed with the folks here. I like the different stuff that can be use in EQ and that it is constantly being updated as the game is either fixed or new content added. As for the suspensions I look at it this way ....... I enjoy the game and with the content here lets me go further in the game. With that said I choose to use the different things here in the game and know that it violates the terms of agreement so if I get suspended then I will take the suspension and move forward and continue to use the things and if I get suspended again I will also move forward (just be more aware of things). If it have to start all over again I will.

Zeb
 

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I think we should keep to what RG is about.

multiboxing in everquest with QoL life tools in a way that is not disruptive and doesn't include active hacks - this happens with or without dbg "being on board" - that doesn't change.

continue to work towards additional safeguards for MacroQuest and specifically RedGuides users, and encourage behaviors that also help minimize/mitigate/assuage "attention".

I think it is very important that all the work done at RG over the years to be "accepted", however it is received by the general eq or dbg, is still kept with genuine honest efforts. I wouldn't have joined this community otherwise.

meaning all the calls for "Open on TrueBox, bring active hacks, burn Everquest down" that are going to come are going to be a downvote from me.

Please for all that is holy - keep the tinfoil out of this thread.
 
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Red & Team
  1. Kudos to all our dev team for reaching out to the community
  2. In parallel tracks: create a backchannel with DBG to understand what's driving this and derive alternatives...maybe even a happy path to some sort of accepted solution
  3. On the other track: move to hide and or increase detection protection. I'm well aware that this avenue is sort of a tit for tat escalation...but if they're adamant about closing the doors...then we've got to find a way to keep the windows and back door open. Like many here ... eq without mq/vv/ctwn plugins suuucks..
Just my two cents.
 
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I may be misunderstanding the purpose of this thread so forgive me if so:

The way I see it, there is no difference in their eyes between RG build and the other "actives" builds. I respect that steps were taking to make this build more kosher in DBG eyes, but currently I do not see any benefit in it. I think a good first step would be removing the TLP limitations by adding those servers to the approved server list since it does nothing other than force individuals to reinject over and over (possibly causing detection issues?). This has no impact on the "spirit of trubox", as you still require individual machines per client. Accept the fact that what we do is not seen as harmless, risk vs reward, and its not a matter of "if" a suspension happens but "when".

Actives are bad. Trying to "seek revenge" on EQ is bad.
 
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I am far from the smartest guy in my neighborhood.. and not sure exactly what you are trying to get from this. But I will throw a couple things out there.

In March of 2021 you posted some chat you had with JChen. Maybe its time to follow up with that or maybe you have. They have to come to realization that at this stage of the game MQ or other hacks will never go away so how can we co-exist. Almost all of the hard core passionate players left in the game are using automation. While I don't care for farmers running 24/7 and I don't like camp whores who never move the fact someone using automation to skip past hundreds of real life hours to get toons to 120 and get the 9 billion ridiculous AA for SK and Shaman does not ever bother me. If they want automation to go away then they need to fix EQ for current state of the game.


Your post from 2021:
I spoke with JChan and Dreamweaver and they gave me permission to report on the entire contents of our conversation, as they find these talks end up public information one way or another. Here are the major points covered:

1) They confirmed the February ban wave was *not* targeted at RedGuides, nor was it MQ2-specific. It covered a range of software from a range of sites. What's the deal lately? Monthly hits for last 4 months along with a hit thrown in last week. What are they gaining by hitting so hard 23 years later.

2) They are surprisingly familiar with the Macroquest scene and what makes RedGuides unique. They're well versed in popular macros and plugins. Of course they are. Don't really think they are not using stuff and on these websites all the time do we?

3) They have a broad definition of botting which includes nearly all automation, but also recognize gray areas within that definition. What’s actionable comes down to their core message: does it give a significant advantage? What advantage? The real advantage are not looking for group for hours ( can they fix that?) and on a lighter scale being able to keep all the loot for your toons. Yes.. I understand that you can program to your hearts content and make it do better. At the same time I would challenge any automated player to Out DPS me playing manually on any raid encounter. No automation I have used has even been close. Yes as a group of 6 I can imagine not getting 6 good players and gaining some benefit. But I am not getting any result a group of 6 decent players can achieve.

4) When asked what caused them to punish some of our community members, they said they can’t say exactly as it would expose their detection method, but throughout the talk they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible. When asked what we could specifically do to avoid another banwave, they instead wanted us to focus on the big picture: stop giving boxed toons a significant advantage over human players. I can see group reaction or bot reaction to start an encounter being an advantage. Maybe this is of concern. But as I posted above I would take 6 good players over automation, but I don't have hundreds of hours to find them.


Anyway. Not trying to be closed minded or anything on what I said. Just some thoughts on last years memo that maybe I would like to see RG challenge them with to gain some insight / perspective and maybe some compromise that benefits everyone. AFK'rs who 24/7 things(cant meet an afk check), bot farmers who hold camps for more than 8 hours, effective hacking (think plat duping), or anyone who trains/is not eq friendly with everyone ( being very vague there) should get hit with up to and including bans. People just minding their own business, being a good active member of the community maybe a suspension if its being overdone. But Banning because of that is simply to much. There has to be a common group after 23 years to find.

my2cprs
 
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Red you helped build a fantastic community. Thank you!

No revenge, just inaction.

I'm cancelling all 18 of my subscriptions. EDIT: I just cancelled all 18 subscriptions - looks like suspension is over until next one.

I'm parking my toons in their favorite locations.
My necromancer will be chilling in Paineel, watching Noclin's familiar attack lowbies that brave starting in Paineel instead of Crescent City. Oh wait.... no one does any more since you get level 12 by picking up an item while invis and turning it in CC.

I'll be doing my part to turn my tumbleweed server into a ghost sever by not playing any toons there. Me, who actively participated in general chat when someone would ask questions, would announce loot drops from my group that we didn't need in /ooc (or general if it was an epic or chest piece). I'd answer questions about quests and lore as best as I knew even when no one else responded for 15 to the user who asked. I'd see someone come to a camp I'm at, I would ask them if they want it and move on, or if they need help with another mob in the zone and can't quite break into the camp. And what was left of the economy I added by having twelve traders, many who specialized in defiant gear for people levelling alts so they could play with friends, as well as tradeskill items that were a pain to get. Needed 1000 raxil fish to get cooking to 300, I was the cheapest available and there when you had the plat but didn't have the time. Now, they can enjoy the silence.

Someone get me a fucking halo. :angel:

I have a few ftp accounts that I used for dev work that I might fire up as the urge to code strikes me. But for the time being, I'm playing FFXIV instead of EQ.

I've been a pirate since the sneakernet days of trading C64 programs on floppies in the late 80's. So yes, I cheated, as did EQ. I'll be back when this gets stabilized, but my last break was three years... after quitting EQ because of WoW's beta in 2004. So we'll see how this goes.

Me playing Everquest:

So yeah, CHIMpS won't see it's full glory of a searchable database of player housing with automated valet keeping inventory organized for a guild or person across a neighborhood. TheOneButton (anti-Button Master) won't see fruition until things stabilize for us "grey hat" cheaters.
 
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Personally I am vehemently against any sort of escalation, especially when it comes to truebox TLPs -- I honestly believe the only people that want this are selfish players wanting to RMT. I think that we should continue to make detection as difficult as possible, and we should stay true to the values we have now. Escalation will 100% end badly, where the second they find a new way to detect MQ2 useage everyone just gets a direct perma ban (this is assuming we can eventually figure out what is detecting us now). The only way we'll ever survive in Everquest is to prove that we're NOT looking to actively hack their game, and that we respect things like Truebox -- TLPs are their cashcows and waging war on that seems incredibly shortsighted and deeply foolish. Let's do our best to show them that we're not the enemy, and that we are willing to engage/cooperate to hopefully find a compromise that works for both sides.
 
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Simple:-

Open MQ to TLP.

(Mod edit note: MQ does work on non-truebox tlps - i believe q8's response was meant to be "truebox")


- MQ is open source, yet it's restricted by RG, which is dramatically funny.
- RG had direct contact at the age of Holly, seems not anymore. Yet one party still sticking to old rules when it's void and nulled.
- Other party (DPG) weighs no value to this community, so why do we play by old rules that don't exist anymore, nor it's being honored.
- You asked for feedback/opinion, this is it........No Restriction on MQ, open it to all, TrueBox, TLP, MilkshakeEQ, VanillaEQ, you name it.
 
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re

dlaevid2's comments

I am far from the smartest guy in my neighborhood.. and not sure exactly what you are trying to get from this. But I will throw a couple things out there.

In March of 2021 you posted some chat you had with JChen. Maybe its time to follow up with that or maybe you have. They have to come to realization that at this stage of the game MQ or other hacks will never go away so how can we co-exist. Almost all of the hard core passionate players left in the game are using automation. While I don't care for farmers running 24/7 and I don't like camp whores who never move the fact someone using automation to skip past hundreds of real life hours to get toons to 120 and get the 9 billion ridiculous AA for SK and Shaman does not ever bother me. If they want automation to go away then they need to fix EQ for current state of the game.


Your post from 2021:
I spoke with JChan and Dreamweaver and they gave me permission to report on the entire contents of our conversation, as they find these talks end up public information one way or another. Here are the major points covered:

1) They confirmed the February ban wave was *not* targeted at RedGuides, nor was it MQ2-specific. It covered a range of software from a range of sites. What's the deal lately? Monthly hits for last 4 months along with a hit thrown in last week. What are they gaining by hitting so hard 23 years later.

2) They are surprisingly familiar with the Macroquest scene and what makes RedGuides unique. They're well versed in popular macros and plugins. Of course they are. Don't really think they are not using stuff and on these websites all the time do we?

3) They have a broad definition of botting which includes nearly all automation, but also recognize gray areas within that definition. What’s actionable comes down to their core message: does it give a significant advantage? What advantage? The real advantage are not looking for group for hours ( can they fix that?) and on a lighter scale being able to keep all the loot for your toons. Yes.. I understand that you can program to your hearts content and make it do better. At the same time I would challenge any automated player to Out DPS me playing manually on any raid encounter. No automation I have used has even been close. Yes as a group of 6 I can imagine not getting 6 good players and gaining some benefit. But I am not getting any result a group of 6 decent players can achieve.

4) When asked what caused them to punish some of our community members, they said they can’t say exactly as it would expose their detection method, but throughout the talk they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible. When asked what we could specifically do to avoid another banwave, they instead wanted us to focus on the big picture: stop giving boxed toons a significant advantage over human players. I can see group reaction or bot reaction to start an encounter being an advantage. Maybe this is of concern. But as I posted above I would take 6 good players over automation, but I don't have hundreds of hours to find them.


Anyway. Not trying to be closed minded or anything on what I said. Just some thoughts on last years memo that maybe I would like to see RG challenge them with to gain some insight / perspective and maybe some compromise that benefits everyone. AFK'rs who 24/7 things(cant meet an afk check), bot farmers who hold camps for more than 8 hours, effective hacking (think plat duping), or anyone who trains/is not eq friendly with everyone ( being very vague there) should get hit with up to and including bans. People just minding their own business, being a good active member of the community maybe a suspension if its being overdone. But Banning because of that is simply to much. There has to be a common group after 23 years to find.

my2cprs
" they repeatedly brought up reaction times being faster than humanly possible" - I've thought about this issue, super-human reaction times, at least 4 times a day since I started using MQ2 about a year ago. I'm not familiar with the nooks and crannies of MQ Next, but I would hope that it would not be TOO encrusted with legacy code to make this ask - insert random delays - a huge human resource hog. Just want to /bca //say ready and not have it instantly obvious that I'm botting.

I love using MQ and will <probably :P> not play if I can't use it. I've been suspended once for 7 days and that wasn't great fun, but I have plenty to do and read some good books and watched some Netflix. I CAN live without EQ, I just don't want to.
 
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One thing that's always confused me is a lot of people complain that others afk play too much, yet there are so many tools here that support afk play.
Maybe we should restrict afk as much as possible?
I know other MQ flavors exist and it won't stop the diehards out there.
 
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I am a convert, I am one of the old players from 1999 who despised anything MQ or cheats, exploits, etc. I boxed alt-tab, then used isboxer. As the server population dwindled and our guild died, friends quit, you get the picture. I decided to say "screw it" let me try RedGuides and see how it works, needless to say, I am hooked and will not play EQ without it. That brings me to the point, seeing all the suspension waves, some people hit multiple times, I fortunately never was touched but decided after 23 years of playing EQ, it was time to retire from the game. I unsubbed my 12 accounts and made a few in-game friends rich in platinum and Kronos. I wanted to kick myself for waiting for so long to try RedGuides, but also thank the entire community for the fun since I joined. It is truly a great community.
 
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I’ll just say this i think it would be rash to escalate until we really see where this is going. Frankly if I have to take a timeout every 2 months to appease some folks who think we are cheating on the forums - I’m ok with a 1 week break. And so far for the most part we haven’t been seeing bans. This to me says they are still trying to toe a line of not alienating our money - as frankly we we would see bans by now considering how many people have been hit.

IF we escalate we probably become more attractive to use the ban hammer on. I’d like to see i this settles down to something every 2-3 months. Right now it seems like more of a test to see if they can geth us to stop using MQ. which I don’t see happening.

so not much to add other than don’t escalate until we know where this is going - we don’t have enough time / data points to understand the real intent yet but it sure doesn’t seem to be to get us to stop paying them i.e. playing.
 
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Redbot i'm not emotional about it, i just ADORE this community and the fantastic productivity. We have a winning card, we should use it. TLP/TrueBox is the yearly peak of their income, by showing them the impact of MQ stones on table might turn to our favor.

If not, i suggest spreading a copy of The Art of War to all devs and heads of RG.

-- my 2 RG cents
 
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I have looked at that and for whatever reason decided not to use it. But it's not just //saying things. Telling the group to gate, camp, or click Stein. Never ever using "Mimic Me" because of this, so I have to alt tab to each toon to hand the Magical Orb of Magicalness to the quest NPC over and over. etc and so forth.
 

Sum1

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Are you confident you can write in protection against what is happening?

If so, quietly implement it. Don't engage, don't make a big announcement, etc. Just tell the community (after testing it) and push the implementation live.

It's clear that DPG isn't interested in living with MQ since I'm not even sure what a "dumbed down" version of MQ looks like. That's what VV is. Original MQ had shitloads of active hacks that did all kinds things that we don't implement here.

This is the other issue.... how can WE implement honest, open changes with DPG while others in the community are like "FU YOLO" and warp around/do other dumb shit? How do you distinguish us from them? I don't think you do, which is why I think quietly developing protections is really the only thing I think works. If you can't do that, then tell us so we can all go play other games.
 
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Personally I am vehemently against any sort of escalation, especially when it comes to truebox TLPs -- I honestly believe the only people that want this are selfish players wanting to RMT. I think that we should continue to make detection as difficult as possible, and we should stay true to the values we have now. Escalation will 100% end badly, where the second they find a new way to detect MQ2 useage everyone just gets a direct perma ban (this is assuming we can eventually figure out what is detecting us now). The only way we'll ever survive in Everquest is to prove that we're NOT looking to actively hack their game, and that we respect things like Truebox -- TLPs are their cashcows and waging war on that seems incredibly shortsighted and deeply foolish. Let's do our best to show them that we're not the enemy, and that we are willing to engage/cooperate to hopefully find a compromise that works for both sides.
Per this thread and the conversation with DP leadership. We are "hacking" and even isboxer is out of bounds. So no form of VV light is going to fly. We can't "give up enough" "Retreat enough" to satisfy them. in my opinion.
 
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One thing that I think is important as a response is don't let the negative attitude about MQ from DPG dissuade the powers that be at this site from continuing to try to have constructive dialogue with DPG. It's easy to have an emotional response and try to sever those ties. I think trying to foster some communication similar to Holly and DW days is healthy and should be continuously encouraged even if it's met with resistance on DPGs side. That may change and I think it's an important bridge to keep open and not entirely burn. This isn't to say this is the current state or what's happening, dialogue may well be happening, but just throwing it out there.
 
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Here are my personal views ...

1) Forget about any communication lines with DPG as a means of finding some compromise. We know what their stance is, and we know that the only form of MQ they would not target and attack as cheating is basically ISB, which defeats the whole purpose. Pursuing any form of compromise or acceptance is a total waste of time in my opinion.

2) As much as I hate to say this, I feel part of the issue may have come from what might be lower barriers to entry that RG has created over the years, via guides and videos created by good people and for good reasons. In short, MQ might have become too easy to get set up and use, and has become too visible in recent years, attracting what DPG might consider an unacceptable percentage of use and something current leadership could no longer turn a blind eye to. This is a hard one for me, because the core of this community is about helping and sharing with others, as well as creating plugins and macros that make things easier not harder, but that might come with an unforeseen cost that we may be seeing now. For me, this means no more guides, explanations and example videos on places like YouTube, with the goal of less visibility rather than more. Sic will probably strongly disagree with this point of view, but it's just the way I see it. I think MQ has no choice but to operate from the shadows as much as possible.

3) Update popular macros and plugins to not allow unattended gameplay, or at least make it much more difficult to accomplish, if something like this is even technically possible. Yeah, that means stuff like MQ2Grind (among other things) gets toasted, but I personally think it could go a long way to reducing exposures. Sure, those that are determined will always find ways around it, but I bet many won't. It's one thing to say "be at the keyboard". It's another to make it much harder to accomplish it via the code. Again ... less exposure and player reports should be the ultimate goal here.

4) As much as it can be done by the great volunteer developers here at RG, continue to find ways to implement measures that avoid process and other forms of possible detection. Yes I know that this is a huge cat and mouse game, but in my opinion its a game worth pursuing if someone(s) is able and willing to try and if it's even possible at this point. Any measures taken should be via an update, with no notes, announcements or fanfare.
 
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Just want to /bca //say ready and not have it instantly obvious that I'm botting.
noparse /bcga //docommand /timed ${Math.Rand[25,300]} /say ready

This will do that :) Not sure who wrote it for me. THANKS to that person! But been using it for long time. Target NPC with all Toons and smash the hotkey. Golden. Changing the second number higher/lower will change the length of randoms. I like 300 but might takes toons up to 30 seconds to say Ready


Sorry .. back on topic .


Community as a whole I think is great. Cheaters... yea whatever. Cant do crap in this game without it for most part. Unless you have 1000s of hours to LFG. Going full assault on them on all servers would not go well.
 
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I am always a bit confused by the reluctance to allow on truebox at this time and let me try to explain why.

RG isn’t bypassing truebox at all. You still need a PC per account. The point of truebox has always been about open world contested raid mobs and the scalability of VM or just multiple clients monopolizing those mobs. This was because of the first two servers being 72 mages insta killing raid mobs. RG doesn’t help that scalability.

Now we can continue with this stance of not allowing it on truebox because we think it’s the right thing to do. Nobody else is playing by that rule though which only leaves a potentially exploit heavy build available day 1 of every truebox server or self compiles of the source code of RG anyways.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.

There isn’t any chance that redbot allows hacks in and our community wouldn’t ask for that. The paid plugins of note aren’t usable even if the community wants truebox restrictions lifted. We can’t take legal action. There is no way to go underground because it’s not that we aren’t secret that’s causing the bans.
 
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I am always a bit confused by the reluctance to allow on truebox at this time and let me try to explain why.

RG isn’t bypassing truebox at all. You still need a PC per account. The point of truebox has always been about open world contested raid mobs and the scalability of VM or just multiple clients monopolizing those mobs. This was because of the first two servers being 72 mages insta killing raid mobs. RG doesn’t help that scalability.

Now we can continue with this stance of not allowing it on truebox because we think it’s the right thing to do. Nobody else is playing by that rule though which only leaves a potentially exploit heavy build available day 1 of every truebox server or self compiles of the source code of RG anyways.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.

There isn’t any chance that redbot allows hacks in and our community wouldn’t ask for that. The paid plugins of note aren’t usable even if the community wants truebox restrictions lifted. We can’t take legal action. There is no way to go underground because it’s not that we aren’t secret that’s causing the bans.

I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.
 
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I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.
Because RG is authorized for usage on Live? It’s not okay on either server which is what always just confused me.

Especially since now that we’re legit open source like we should be and anyone can do 10-20 lines of copy/paste and be working on any truebox server. We’re not actually preventing anything instead we’re sending those people to shady compiles.

Like I said the discussion is fairly moot but it’s never made sense since we aren’t a truebox bypass.
 

Knightly

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since it does nothing other than force individuals to reinject over and over (possibly causing detection issues?).
You misunderstand. This isn’t a preventative or detective mechanism, it is trying to protect you from yourself.
If so, quietly implement it. Don't engage, don't make a big announcement, etc. Just tell the community (after testing it) and push the implementation live.
Telling the community is announcing it~
 
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I'm in agreement with most folks I see posting here that this is an amazing community and w/o it, I would just prefer not to play. Even though I always prefer a group and I only raid with one toon and no software, the options this software opens up makes the game fun and enjoyable for us players that have a life outside EQ and family commitments. That being said, I do think the following;

1) Certainly try to work on ways to prevent detection, but I imagine you have already been doing that and it seems impossible to me to prevent them from detecting a series of keystrokes so it's likely not going to happen (but I'm no software engineer)
2) Definitely try to reach out to those that will speak with you at DPG, but again I'm afraid that may be a moot point now. They have definitely shown us for almost 5 months now that they do not want 3rd party software and as stated, they even made a point of mentioning it in their 2022 roadmap. Hard to believe they would reverse the decision now or even hint to you that it will stop in time, but it never hurts to try.

There is lots of speculation about how much of the EQ community uses 3rd party software, but if they really are going to be as strict as they indicate, then loss of revenue is the only way I can see them being willing to make concessions. If they are ever going to consider that, it will likely be to those who reached out to them trying to find a positive solution.

I kind of feel like the main issue is with the 24/7 play, the plat/krono farming/sales outside of the game and the constant camping of certain spots for hours/days on end. All of which I think is wrong. While there may be ways to limit time played, you still can't change who is behind the keyboard and there are always going to be those that use this software or others like it as a business or act like an ass when they use it. I imagine that is why DPG is taking the hard stance of NO 3rd party is acceptable.
 
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2) As much as I hate to say this, I feel part of the issue may have come from what might be lower barriers to entry that RG has created over the years, via guides and videos created by good people and for good reasons. In short, MQ might have become too easy to get set up and use, and has become too visible in recent years, attracting what DPG might consider an unacceptable percentage of use and something current leadership could no longer turn a blind eye to. This is a hard one for me, because the core of this community is about helping and sharing with others, as well as creating plugins and macros that make things easier not harder, but that might come with an unforeseen cost that we may be seeing now. For me, this means no more guides, explanations and example videos on places like YouTube, with the goal of less visibility rather than more. Sic will probably strongly disagree with this point of view, but it's just the way I see it. I think MQ has no choice but to operate from the shadows as much as possible.
I disagree with this. Having guides and videos doesn't attract new players. I think the vast majority of people decide to use MQ before they realize that there are guides on YouTube, etc. If you follow the forums you know that a lot of new users don't even know about the guides and videos.

I agree that RG makes it easier to get up and running with MQ. I also submit that some percentage of users use RG but would not use MQ/MQ64 due to complexity. But I don't think the fact that there are YouTube videos has anything to do with more people deciding to use MQ.

Taking down the guides and videos would really just lead to more of the same questions and frustration from new users. It wouldn't decrease the number of people wanting to use MQ.

If more people are using MQ (which is debatable, I certainly have no data on this, only DPG would know), it's because the EQ population continues to shrink and more people are realizing that it's box or die.
 

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Here are my personal views ...

1) Forget about any communication lines with DPG as a means of finding some compromise. We know what their stance is, and we know that the only form of MQ they would not target and attack as cheating is basically ISB, which defeats the whole purpose. Pursuing any form of compromise or acceptance is a total waste of time in my opinion.

2) As much as I hate to say this, I feel part of the issue may have come from what might be lower barriers to entry that RG has created over the years, via guides and videos created by good people and for good reasons. In short, MQ might have become too easy to get set up and use, and has become too visible in recent years, attracting what DPG might consider an unacceptable percentage of use and something current leadership could no longer turn a blind eye to. This is a hard one for me, because the core of this community is about helping and sharing with others, as well as creating plugins and macros that make things easier not harder, but that might come with an unforeseen cost that we may be seeing now. For me, this means no more guides, explanations and example videos on places like YouTube, with the goal of less visibility rather than more. Sic will probably strongly disagree with this point of view, but it's just the way I see it. I think MQ has no choice but to operate from the shadows as much as possible.

3) Update popular macros and plugins to not allow unattended gameplay, or at least make it much more difficult to accomplish, if something like this is even technically possible. Yeah, that means stuff like MQ2Grind (among other things) gets toasted, but I personally think it could go a long way to reducing exposures. Sure, those that are determined will always find ways around it, but I bet many won't. It's one thing to say "be at the keyboard". It's another to make it much harder to accomplish it via the code. Again ... less exposure and player reports should be the ultimate goal here.

4) As much as it can be done by the great volunteer developers here at RG, continue to find ways to implement measures that avoid process and other forms of possible detection. Yes I know that this is a huge cat and mouse game, but in my opinion its a game worth pursuing if someone(s) is able and willing to try and if it's even possible at this point. Any measures taken should be via an update, with no notes, announcements or fanfare.
i do disagree, tho i see your point.

unfortunately mq should not be gatekept - and rg isn't the distribution site for gatekeeping - there are others if that is your jam
 

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I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.
Not that I'm advocating for the use of truebox. Simply to point out that it would only be dishonorable if there was an agreement in place. Which there is not. Even if there was an agreement in place, what would we be getting in exchange for agreeing to such a thing? Surely it's not to be left to our own devices on the alternately available servers.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.
It's not a stretch considering Redguides / Macroquest doesn't support truebox that the plugins that are exclusive to redguides also wouldn't support truebox. If the stance changes in the future then changes would be made to accomodates said changes for the allowance. Though I'm not the one you'd need to discuss it with as I'm just playing follow the leader. Though I do think it's a bad idea to poke the proverbial bear.

One thing that I think is important as a response is don't let the negative attitude about MQ from DPG dissuade the powers that be at this site from continuing to try to have constructive dialogue with DPG.
A constructive dialog would be nice. There was an attempt made. Based on what I understood of the conversation I'm in agreement with dlaevid2 that the information obtained from the conversation was vague and alluded to the essential eradication of MQ as we know it and leaning towards creating an entirely different utility that exists in one form or another already (isboxer style?). I did not see the dialog with them as productive in the sense that at the end of it all I felt I had no better direction on what would satisfy them given the nature of MQ than I did prior to the conversation.
 
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It depends on from what perspective you consider “threat” but I would mostly say no in any regard.
@Knightly agree and disagree with you there. We pose a threat in the sense that these tools allows players to do more with less (subbed time)...as an example me being able to run 54+ characters (and counting...i'm still building lol) solo threatens their model in a lot of way. On the other hand...I would say some of us in the community were (prior to all this foolishness) a hell of a lot more profitable, engaged, and beneficial to servers (Pwlvl's, Lag Pile MGB's/buffs, loot to guildies, etc...) than a regular joe player sitting in their living room soloing stuff or joining to run a raid ever was.

Prior MQ/VV (manual boxing) or post...I was contributing way more than I was ever taking both financial (12+ subs/exp purchases per year). Now, I'm on the boat of just helping our community and logging in to have fun. I've no plan to purchase anything or help anyone w/ anything on my servers until DBG mends their ways again and give me a reason to spend

Till that happens, get ready for bazaar shit to be super expensive (spells, gear, etc)...and for a buffless and no assist gaming experience for everyone else...just like DBG there's a cost to cover. They're just shooting themselves in the foot and creating a bad player experience for everyone
 
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i do disagree, tho i see your point.

unfortunately mq should not be gatekept - and rg isn't the distribution site for gatekeeping - there are others if that is your jam

Yeah I get and appreciate your position, although I don't think my view would go so far as calling it gatekeeping. Just more ... discreet? Also, if I do have a jam related to MQ, it would most certainly be RG, so that's that. :)
 

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