Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (2 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Restina]

It's not a stretch considering Redguides / Macroquest doesn't support truebox that the plugins that are exclusive to redguides also wouldn't support truebox. If the stance changes in the future then changes would be made to accomodates said changes for the allowance. Though I'm not the one you'd need to discuss it with as I'm just playing follow the leader. Though I do think it's a bad idea to poke the proverbial bear.

Yeah I felt that was a personal decision since you can compile for any server and you had to go “out of your way” to code a block in for your plugins. Where RG made the decision to just not include by default yours was to actively block. That’s why I felt that if the MQ portion decided to remove that restriction from the compile you would have a different opinion. Just to make sure I’m not saying that’s a bad stance. I think a lot of people here haven’t dealt with truebox or self compiles which is why I added that info into my post.

 

[Restina]

It's clear RG respects true box. Doesn't matter if you think it's not an agreement. Allowing RG to run on true box would be seen as an act of agresssion.

I still don’t get this. Act of aggression to whom? DPG is suspending and banning for it on non truebox. It’s 10000% not allowed on any DPG server. There is a reason that only Holly and Dreamweaver were in the Rizlona discussion group about MQ usage. Absor and JChan are against any MQ at all to the core of their being.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

1. Continue to gather information as best we can.
2. Continue to attempt conversation with Darkpaw or anyone who might have backdoor access to their thinking.
3. Create a new project to emulate a proficient alt-tab style of boxing. ISBoxer on steroids?

 

[okert2675]

I would focus the energy and passion around identifying what they are going after. If its actions per minute or automation (like auto forage, etc) then we have to cut those off. If we figure out its purely the mq process is running, then I think we have to try and approach it from the standpoint of building these QOL features into the game. Tons of other games have the lazyfind features, auto pricing, buff management, combat stick, etc. Their competition games like wow have these addons as a feature. I think we'd have to pursue some collaborative effort for longevity or accept that youre playing on borrowed time for any one account. That collaborative effort might entail giving them authority on approved add ons, or providing them the hard work devs have done here for inclusion into their code. I mean there have been plenty of mq features that have shown up in game over the years (mercs, autocombine, melody, gina, etc)

 

[One Cool Trick]

@Knightly agree and disagree with you there. We pose a threat in the sense that these tools allows players to do more with less (subbed time)...as an example me being able to run 54+ characters (and counting...i'm still building lol) solo threatens their model in a lot of way. On the other hand...I would say some of us in the community were (prior to all this foolishness) a hell of a lot more profitable, engaged, and beneficial to servers (Pwlvl's, Lag Pile MGB's/buffs, loot to guildies, etc...) than a regular joe player sitting in their living room soloing stuff or joining to run a raid ever was.

Prior MQ/VV (manual boxing) or post...I was contributing way more than I was ever taking both financial (12+ subs/exp purchases per year). Now, I'm on the boat of just helping our community and logging in to have fun. I've no plan to purchase anything or help anyone w/ anything on my servers until DBG mends their ways again and give me a reason to spend

Till that happens, get ready for bazaar shit to be super expensive (spells, gear, etc)...and for a buffless and no assist gaming experience for everyone else...just like DBG there's a cost to cover. They're just shooting themselves in the foot and creating a bad player experience for everyone

@an_image I simply gave red cents cause #DinTheB avatar, best skit ever! :P

 

[madruk20]

Speculating is not really going to do anything. They'll never tell people directly what they're banning you for. Just have to play and accept the risks that what you're doing can get you a vacation. You're using a third party program and even if all it does is send smiley faced emotes to someone, they can ban you for it. Regardless I'd recommend being as low key as possible and don't use the things that make it very obvious you're using something (ie keyboard turning, sitting melees on servers without ooc regen, broadcasting all at once, etc etc). Either way I don't think even think that matters as much anymore it looks like they're just automating banning on top of reports now anyway.

 

[lanceval]

I don’t consider using mq is cheating. It is just a different way of playing EQ.
I think it could be useful to talk about it positively on official forum in order to change the perception., after all it is the thermometer of DBG.

As for true box, the fact RG do not provide functional tools on true box is sensible.

But this is rhetorical as It does not prevent anything anyway.
MQ is open source and one can build its own mq with changes.

 

[Phalanx]

We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

I've found it hard mentally to play with the bannening cloud hanging over me. I'd certainly be willing to pay more for a premium plugin solution.

 

[ChatWithThisName]

It's clear RG respects true box. Doesn't matter if you think it's not an agreement. Allowing RG to run on true box would be seen as an act of agresssion.

I was responding to if it would "honorable" or not. Nothing in regards to it being seen as "aggression"

 

[Kuridd]

My opinion is to work with DPG as much as possible and get some accommodations or work within some kind of framework that they are comfortable with but also work on improving security and reducing detections if possible. If we need to raise funds for an outside security audit so be it, though not sure what benefit that would be with an open-source project.

 

[Sifter228]

I was responding to if it would "honorable" or not. Nothing in regards to it being seen as "aggression"

Think of it as an understood you. There's an agreement it's just understood to be. A radical betrayal of one's own values is violating an understanding of whom.

 

[ChatWithThisName]

Think of it as an understood you. There's an agreement it's just understood to be. A radical betrayal of one's own values is violating an understanding of whom.

No, no agreement.

 

[Sifter228]

No, no agreement.

I'm speaking of social behaviors and expected norms as in when rg clearly says the don't support true box it is expected and rightfully so by everyone that rg would not just stop doing that.

 

[dannuic]

lol

 

[Sum1]

You misunderstand. This isn’t a preventative or detective mechanism, it is trying to protect you from yourself.

Telling the community is announcing it~

Rather than full on fanfare with banners across the site and ads about how our MQ is safe, simply say “we’ve incorporated what we think are adequate protections.” and leave it at that.

Communicating a status isn’t the same thing as a huge overt announcement (in my mind).

Also, make the communication once and then don’t keep hammering it home.

 

[Hazzard]

Like a lot of people here i have been playing EQ for Over 20 years. When i started the only internet was dial up. I played up until Ragefire or Phinny was released before i started using MQ. I knew people that used it when i was playing on TP hacking under the world attacking the mobs without the mobs being able to hit them. I knew people that warped around the zone killed names while groups were clearing to the camp. I will never use that fucking program it's a so unfair and garbage is what i told them.

I did my time in EQ alt tabbing running 6-8 toons on one comp and 2-3 on a second comp playing 6 toons on a Truebox with 6 computers and my wife playing another 3 i spend money on computers so i could box on true box I alt tabbed for 10-15 years i was good at it then you know what happen? I got old lol

Fast forward to now after finding RG talking to people in game when i was on Phinny seeing post here from Sic, CWTN and so many other people that contribute to the RG Community the amount of Time effort and love you all put in to RG is just amazing to see and experience.

Do i think using RG is cheating? no i don't. It's not like Joe who sits and cry's that i'm using RG can't come download it and use it too. It's not like it's hidden away and you need to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for it. It's here for anyone to come get an use.

It sucks with people getting suspended it really does i had some friends hit in the last 2 or 3 waves now on Rizlona one was told just "cheating" the other was told "use of 3ed party software" the only thing he was running was MQ.

I don't know the answer on how to fix this, shit i can't even edit my ini files right lol.

As Forest Gump would say Im not a smart man Jenny but i do know what love is. If you open up and attack EQ to prove a point your gonna find out very fast what love is not and thats not the answer.

1. Try and talk to the Devs at EQ see what can be worked out if that's an option see what they will and won't allow use of it anything.
2. Work on a way to hide it so they can't detect it if that is how they are finding out and doing banning.
3. ride the mother till the wheels fall off like i'm doing and enjoy the ride.

If RG goes away i will be gone with it i won't play EQ without RG ever again i just can't do it and won't do it you guys here have spoiled me way to much to go without no MQ the game just isn't fun for me without it and after all Games are supposed to be fun.

I have seen it said here a few times that RG provides the tools for people to AFK bot and farm and to just take them away. IT's also said many many many times over and over by the people that make them plugins they are not intended for you to turn them on and walk away from your computer. It is my understanding that the programs are intended to be used while your sitting at your computer working, reading the news or whatever not to be used and go to work for 8 hours.

If you made it this far your a true MVP Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

 

[Szazor]

TLDR: Dont change anything - Just try to be invisible.

The absolute Best thing about Redguides is the Community. A big part of that community is the integrity we hold ourselves too.

While acknowledging that we are breaking the EULA...and technically YES we are cheating, Im sure most of us stand against active hacks and game breaking exploits, and not allowing playing on TrueBox is the ethical thing to do.

I think most of us agree that we are against anything that impacts other users experience of the game.

I just want to play EQ. Not to make Real life money, I do not want to upset anyone or impact on their ability to experience the game as it was designed.

I do want to have Autofollow that works, a guild portal that is easy to use, auto navigation for me and my group, and an auto accept system for trusted toons.
Nothing spectacular there...just QOL stuff that is not game breaking.

QoL stuff shouldn't be bannable - but the guild I was in was using a Loot Auctioning Bot for Auctioning the loot from raids.
We killed the Big Boss and linked the loot to the Bot.

The folks in the raid would send tells to the bot with a DKP Bid and it would determine who the winner was based on attendance and DKP etc.
It was fast an efficient and with multiple bots it would auction multiple things at once - and 100% just a QOL tool.

When the person associated with this loot auction bot was Banned - not suspended - others (Family) also quit in response. The end result was the guild imploding and now the guild struggle to kill Zlandicar.

So, I don't know if there is any solution to the "Cheating" Stigma that is caused by using RG, but I do know that I try to remain invisble.

1. Don't talk about Fight Club
2. Don't play for 40 hrs a day in the same spot farming hDex Augs. You are asking for a Banhammer.
3. Don't use Overseer. (Tin Foil Hat advises that they can probably see that you do Overseer every 12 hrs like clockwork!)
4. Don't use Feedme - especially if you are just sitting in the Guild Lobby afk
5. Make a Pause ALL (/boxr pause) when you run to the make no 2, or make a cuppa tea.
6. Don't get into fights with people in EQ.
7. Clean up your mess.
8. Don't be impatient - you will Max AA soon enough - no need to let it run overnight.

There is nothing to say that i wont still get suspended or banned, but I will try to continue to remain invisible and try not to upset anyone.

I wouldn't want to see RG change our Ethics - since DBG is clearly at war with people who do the stupid things.

We can only hope that after all the stupid users have been banned, then the remaining people who just want to play the game - solo in a group of 54 will be left alone.

 

[VorpalChicken]

Personally I think the days of MQ on live servers is coming to an end, on the server I was playing on, it had a fair few people running bot groups, after the last 2 ban waves the majority of spots where they were are now ghost zones, not all used RG either, i found out, after managing to contact a few people I knew.

With the programming talent RG has, I think it's time you moved focus to doing a RG Emu server, personally from what I've seen of the stuff you guys have been doing, your time would be better spent coming up with an enhanced emu server, there's plenty around atm and I've actually now transitioned to playing on Project Lazarus (which is pretty sweet so far, a couple of small niggles but nothing that stops me from having a to of fun) and most importantly RG mq2 works on it.

Times change, and we need to change with them, I'm personally done giving any money in any form to Daybreak now, when the MQ community leaves a large percentage of the servers will be gone.

 

[lanceval]

If no communication with DPG happened yet , that is probably not going to ever happen.
It means they are not likely to change their policy.

But it is an opportunity to transition to EQEMU.
Having access to the code server side would bring new perspectives.

From my perspective transitioning to EMU would impact DPG more seriously than activating mq on their true box server on the long term.

There is a lively community here, playing all together on EQEMU might even turn to be an awesome experience!

 

[BobWeaver]

To me it feels like DBG is just responding to the player complaints. DBG responding to the customers that are so vocal against MQ users. Most of my suspensions can be traced through the logs to a complaining player.

Maybe DBG is just the parent trying to keep the kids from fighting and make them both happy. Unfortunately we are breaking the rules and are therefore being punished.

Is our fight actually against the non MQ users? If we satisfy them, does it make DBG back off? If so, how do we do that?

 

[Grpsmashin]

If no communication with DPG happened yet , that is probably not going to ever happen.
It means they are not likely to change their policy.

But it is an opportunity to transition to EQEMU.
Having access to the code server side would bring new perspectives.

From my perspective transitioning to EMU would impact DPG more seriously than activating mq on their true box server on the long term.

There is a lively community here, playing all together on EQEMU might even turn to be an awesome experience!

I second this.

I like the idea of this community having a EMU type server all the way up to current content if possible. I would rather pay money to this than give DBG money and risk lossing everything because they would not want to work with us on what we can improve on. This is why i stopped playing because i dont want to lose everything i have built.

 

[VestalBears]

Simple:-

Open MQ to TLP.

(Mod edit note: MQ does work on non-truebox tlps - i believe q8's response was meant to be "truebox")

 

[Sofabutt]

I'm personally of the opinion that if you get caught using MQ2 and you get suspended then you should just go with it. It's all cheating, whether you're sitting at you computer watching your character do something automatically or you're afk letting it do its thing. Take your lumps and keep your mouth shut.

 

[Bukktoof]

There is nothing to be gained by becoming "hostile". It won't go well.

I have never been suspended or banned but i think its because of how i play. I'm not one of the guys running a 54 man raid, I have 3 characters i basically roll with and use mercs to fill out my group. I do have 6 accounts but i really only log them in when i need 6 real players. I don't have billions of gold nor hundreds of Krono. I'm a pretty low key player who stays out of everyone elses way. I don't have a trader in the Bazaar with ridiculous numbers of farmed items for sale.
I do afk grind aa's and farm tradeskill mats ... but I NEVER EVER EVER do it in a spot that has quest mobs/drops or other points of interest that might be blocking other players from completing things. I ONLY farm these type of things while i am actively at the keyboard playing.

I think the best way to stay out of trouble is to simply not cause any grief to other players who might be inclined to report you. When you are hogging up the best exp spots in the game with multiple powerleveling crews you are going to get a LOT of negative attention. That guy sitting in pok who can't find a group is going to look sideways at you when you are leveling entire raid forces with max aa's and gear they cant get.

As a community we HAVE to figure out how to do our thing without causing problems.

I first started this game when Kunark was released and Ive come and gone several times over the years but this game and UO are still my favorites .... I always come back to them. However I don't have the free time i did when i first started playing these games and I honestly wouldn't play them anymore without programs like MQ helping me out. I hope I never get hit with a ban stick because it would be the end of me playing this game.

I honestly think most problems come when other players start complaining about us. We need to be invisible so that is how i think future efforts should be aimed.

 

[Dysanor]

This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.

 

[Sic]

This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.

this is absolutely without question not what we want. prison servers don't work. even Holly mentioned this when we were all discussing making Rizlona possible.

 

[Dysanor]

Interesting.

 

[Jetanroth]

This topic will affect us differently as some of us have never been suspended, some have multiple times, and some have lost an account or more.

Personally, I have never changed my play style, and when I finally get suspended, I will continue to play the toons which are untouched as I normally have. My motto has always been with folks: play while you can or don't.

I do not believe in any kind of retribution. We chose to do what they don't like. Risk vs Reward and I'd say I'm way ahead of their game.

I couldn't agree with you more.

DPG makes the rules for EQ, it is their game, their RnD, thier money and that is their right to set any rules they want. Just like RG can set forum conduct rules here and delete peoples posts anytime they dont fit the rules. That is how shit works. If it works here on RG forums, what makes anyone think a $300,000,000 company doesn't get to make their own rules?

That being said, I will continue to gladly violate the EULA, break the rules, risk suspension, risk banning, risk losing 20 years worth of work on multiple accounts in order to ENJOY THE GAME MY WAY with my box crew.

I will never stop using MQ, I will never stop risking suspension, I know the consequences of that choice and I accept it completely.

 

[an_image]

I couldn't agree with you more.

DPG makes the rules for EQ, it is their game, their RnD, thier money and that is their right to set any rules they want. Just like RG can set forum conduct rules here and delete peoples posts anytime they dont fit the rules. That is how shit works. If it works here on RG forums, what makes anyone think a $300,000,000 company doesn't get to make their own rules?

That being said, I will continue to gladly violate the EULA, break the rules, risk suspension, risk banning, risk losing 20 years worth of work on multiple accounts in order to ENJOY THE GAME MY WAY with my box crew.

I will never stop using MQ, I will never stop risking suspension, I know the consequences of that choice and I accept it completely.

 

[Gohast]

I say work on detection avoidance and dropping the Truebox restriction.

I get why it was done initially but that has proven moot. Now it's like we're bums outside of the nice restaurant trying to prove to everyone inside that we're good by picking up trash. They don't care what we're doing. They just want us gone.

 

[ASmith50]

RG EMU server sounds like it would be pretty amazing and fun, no more hiding who you are and openly helping everyone out in general chat (if that feature is in EMU servers lol)

 

[ascensi0n]

I'll begin by stating that I heavily disagree with everyone who says they want to just keep going "as-is" and enjoy the game until they can't play anymore (i.e. suspended and added to the watch list or ultimately banned). You're merely accepting the fact that you're playing Russian roulette, which is a game I personally don't find enjoyable. As someone who's likely in the hall of fame of most accounts lost due to permaban, I can assure you that I'm intimately familiar with how it plays out.

The obvious answer from my perspective (computer security professional) is to spend more time researching and developing anti-detection mechanisms. My ideas are as follows:

• Research how detections are likely happening, research those detection methods, as well as how others have historically defeated them, and develop mechanisms to harden the payload against those methods.
  • Protecting against polymorphic cheat codes in video games
  • Valve Anti-Cheat Pattern Detection Mitigation
  • Valve-Anti-Cheat-VAC-Bypass-Methods
• Develop a polymorphic engine for MacroQuest.
• Develop a metamorphic engine for MacroQuest.
• Modify your behavior in-game to mitigate being manually reported by other players.
• Have fun

As far as MQ on TrueBox TLPs, I think that's not a great idea as it's likely to cause more EQ community upset, and likely to invoke a knee-jerk reaction against the MQ community as a whole.

Back into the woodwork for me. Cheers!

Edit: I also really like the idea of a MQ EMU server, however that would take a ton of work to implement the missing expansions. If the work was to be done however, the administrative team would be exposing themselves to serious legal risk from EG7.

 

[Oldman66]

Personally I don't see DBG changing their stance. It would as if they gave in and that's not going to happen. Unfortunately, I feel the damage has been done and it's irreversible. There are too many "Holier than Thou" 13 year olds who have been playing for 20yrs pointing out what they think are MQ users even if it's just a tab boxer moving his crew. Once they cry about that in /general, you get the bandwagon folks chiming in as well. There are still the blatant MQ users that aren't helping anything either. I am going to continue playing the game I enjoy and when DBG drops the hammer and bans, then it is what it is. EMU is a thought but I have RL friends who will not leave "live" servers so I am playing until there's no rezzes left for my accounts.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

Facing facts; if Daybreak is maintaining good operational security and secrecy, we may never know the details of their detection. And if the Daybreak employee with the hard on for "cheaters" is a more senior person, they may never back off from their random enforcement actions. Meanwhile, I've got characters I don't want to lose so I have to quit cheating with MQ (at least for those characters!)

Or I continue cheating, but with a new "undetectable" program. I would help fund a new program even if it didn't have all the current functionality of MQ. I already pay for ISBoxer and I'm willing to give up AFK gameplay, maps, and complex macros, if I can get the alts to behave with somewhat more automation than ISBoxer can provide.

My thinking is that if we only grab game variables that are available through UI programming, then game memory injection might not be needed. And if we're reading UI elements exactly like a human would, then it's going to be very difficult for them to prove we are automating or cheating. And if our game actions are limited to what is available through keyboard emulation then once again that is nearly undetectable. (Look at a keyboard program like Keytext for example, it's dumb but just emulates a person pressing keys.)

The result would be a much poorer experience than MQ currently provides but perhaps enough automation to get by?

 

[taz6two]

I don’t know why I am so reluctant to reply to this thread. Hoping I am not down voted to Fippy I guess.

The Bad, A few things that are certain:

• Darkpaw Games owns Everquest and you (we) are not entitled to anything.
• Raising up against Dark Paw will get you nothing but probably suspended or banned quicker and draw more unwanted attention to the rest of the MQ communities.
• Asking MQ users, RG’s or other, to play a certain way is never going to work. People will play how every they want to play. No one can or should ask others to behave a certain way and I have never seen an honor system among a larger group of anonymous players ever work, no matter how simple a task may be.
• And lastly, your feelings on whether you think what your doing is cheating or not is irrelevant. It’s cheating to the only people that matter in this case, which is Darkpaw.

Honestly, in my opinion there are only a few things we can do:

• Continue working on humanizing the game mechanics around plugins, macros, Lua’s and other scripts in general.
• Continue working on anonymizers and evade tools like Posse, MQSay, GTFO and yes, even afktools causes see post #3 above.
• Keep collection data on those willing to talk about what happened leading up to the suspension or ban. Cause maybe they just don’t like endgame raiders or people in blue dye armor or who knows. But we will never know if we don’t care enough to gather the data.
• Keep trying to open a line of communication with Darkpaw no matter how much they ignore/avoid it. Somehow, we need them to see our side, the quality-of-life enhancements that RG/MQ brings to us. Maybe one day they will surprise us.

Remember, in the end, they have all the logs they need, they are not dumb or lazy. If they wanted us gone we would be gone. Personally I think they just want us to be quite and not obvious.

--Taz

 

[Ionis]

I don't think we should respond at all.

While it may be convenient to throw caution to the wind and all-in a 100 % unmoderated compile that works anywhere and everywhere, provocation of this measure would only make matters worse. Throughout the development of IonBC, I was in constant communication with Redbot about keeping consistent with RedGuides' mentality and Daybreak's ruleset. Breaking these guidelines would almost certainly bring greater consequences for the community as a whole. Jen's stance on third party software is crystal clear, if you're still going in to this thinking that we should respond with all out war you need to take a step back and think about what that really means for the community as a whole. There's more at stake here than just your team that got hit with a 7-day suspension, decades worth of work went in to creating this platform we all use, to throw caution to the wind and provoke Daybreak in to taking more drastic action just out of spite is without a doubt the wrong choice.

If anything, I am of the opinion that non-injectable, independent software used on TrueBox servers, as well as it's discussion, should be more widely accepted. The guidelines for discussing and creating software related to TrueBox servers should be altered to fully allow the development of this software. Keep it well moderated, have it either open source or require administrative source access. Assuming we keep software in the happy, non-injectable space that Daybreak is content with, I don't believe this would be seen as provocation and could give a non-provocative solution to those wanting to use applications for ease of boxing on TrueBox servers.

That's my two cents anyways, I firmly oppose declaring all out war against Daybreak and always will regardless.

 

[dlaevid2]

I'm personally of the opinion that if you get caught using MQ2 and you get suspended then you should just go with it. It's all cheating, whether you're sitting at you computer watching your character do something automatically or you're afk letting it do its thing. Take your lumps and keep your mouth shut.

I have no issues with suspensions. None. They suck yes.. but that is the punishment. I have been known to do rolling stops at stop signs which is illegal and occasionally get busted. I thank the officer, pay my fine, and go back to life.

I do have major issue with Perma Bans unless you are actively hacking (think plat duping), harassing other people, or camping a named spot 24/7 for days on end. Other than that Perma Bans are bullshit. Even most severe felonies in real life get parole and this is hardly that. To lose hundreds if not thousands of real life hours on a virtual game is excessive. They want to give me a 14 day break every month.. get on with it. Make my family happy. Or I will pay double to leave me the fck alone. I am good with either way. If they just took Perma Bans off the table then lets roll and quit worrying about it .....

 

[Maskoi]

Let's pretend its 2004 again and DPG is the enemy. Let's re-learn using it can get you banned at any time. Protect yourself.

1. If you see people using MQ stupidly or obviously, report them.
2. Check and answer your tells. If you missed one just say you lost it in battle spam.
3. Don't camp live zones in the newest expansion bogarting named 24/7 for 3 days straight.
4. If idiots, self appointed EQ police, are watching you ask them to leave. If they don't log.
5. You don't need to be max level and AA's in 2 days. If you afk do it in old out of the way zones. Your toons will max out eventually.
6. Don't MQ on True Box and TLP. The normal players are the loudest whiniest bunch of cry babies in gaming. DPG listens to vocal minority of complaints of PAYING customers.
7. Play smart. Think about what you are doing with MQ. If it interrupts or ruins other people's fun you are going to get reported.

1st rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.
2nd rule of fight club
DO NOT TALK ABOUT MACROQUEST.

I saw I am repeating a few things that Szazor wrote early I just read the entire thread but you get the idea.

 

[BrianGragg]

this is absolutely without question not what we want. prison servers don't work. even Holly mentioned this when we were all discussing making Rizlona possible.

We’ve had the discussion before but I suffer from CRAFT. Why is it a bad thing? It’s widely known that damn near everyone on Riz uses some form of automation and openly. You almost never hear about suspensions on that server and I personally feel is a great server and a great economy. It’s had a few suspensions but I consider them more token than them trying to send a strict message. Even if you had some rules like no active hacks or anything that is an overt burden to the servers. Something comes forth that is causing issues, the devs can say look knock that shit off it’s causing to much stress on the infrastructure. Make all accounts paid accounts like a TLP.

I understand it would hurt some that F2P but the company has to have the funds to keep it going. Adding a burden to the company and not offering a revenue source is a quick way to say don’t take me serious.


*edit*
Not trying to be argumentative. I honestly don’t remember shit and you could of had a very great reason and I’ve forgotten.

 

[Sic]

We’ve had the discussion before but I suffer from CRAFT. Why is it a bad thing? It’s widely known that damn near everyone on Riz uses some form of automation and openly. You almost never hear about suspensions on that server and I personally feel is a great server and a great economy. It’s had a few suspensions but I consider them more token than them trying to send a strict message. Even if you had some rules like no active hacks or anything that is an overt burden to the servers. Something comes forth that is causing issues, the devs can say look knock that shit off it’s causing to much stress on the infrastructure. Make all accounts paid accounts like a TLP.

I understand it would hurt some that F2P but the company has to have the funds to keep it going. Adding a burden to the company and not offering a revenue source is a quick way to say don’t take me serious.

you can search where i've explained a few times and don't intend or re-re-re-re-re-re-rehashing it every time it gets brought up, but i'd be doing myself and others a disservice by not saying "we don't want this"

prison server = no customer support
prison server = one way
prison server = run by the inmates (toxic)
prison server = think of the worst most toxic person you can think of in your general chat - now give them free reign to say/do things without repercussions.
prison server = does 0 to solve most of the reasons people box
prison server = good majority of folks who box aren't going to ditch their guild/friends/raid to go to the above listed shithole

even Holly mentioned how it looks better on paper than in actuality. they did it in eq2 > here <