Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (1 Viewer)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[an_image]

Should we be pushing for private instances of zones? Doesn’t seem likely but would probably solve a ton of problems.

I agree. I also think it compounds the issues DBG is having trouble addressing which is the overall play-ability (if that's a word) of the game for single users. There's two camps (and a spectrum in between).

1. There's us who mostly want to go out there player vs. environment with our boxes (and/or a few friends)
2. There's the regular player trying to log-in and have a gaming experience.

The root cause is that #2...can't really function for most of the high-end game at all...then they see people on #1...and go like...WTF...and then us in camp #1 go to people in camp 2...whatevs dudes...enjoy camping plane of knowledge (generalization...i think most of us actually help(ed) other players a significant amount).

Hence why you're seeing the current state of affairs. The company feels the "old strategy" or MMO approach they built the platform on is at risk...when what they're reluctant to realize is that it's already dying. They could redevelop the game dynamics to appeal more to that casual or hardcore single box player at the risk of alienating us...which is the path they've chosen (at great cost i might say...I'll stick to this no matter what...one of us is worth at least 4-6 of them)

I'm sure there's other ways to slice this but that's my Wednesday soapbox story

Personally I see this all the time @ work...you've got one hardliner somewhere...wether it's code, an app, something...that listens to their own little bubble without engaging in a broader conversation...pushes a change they feel is right for everyone and slowly starts to break the world.

Tabs vs. Spaces ... woot!

 

[rdawgemfl]

I've been suspended 2 times now, the thing that frustrates me is "why".. What exactly am I doing that is cheating ? so I use the RG stuff.. Let me explain my thoughts some may or may not disagree but I feel as though I need to express this.

I've had my EQ accounts for over 20 years, I never boxed till lately. The reason is back 20 years ago I could find groups, there were always people on. I met lots of good and not so good people, but so goes life. Back then I would be in groups of 5 toons that were all from different guilds, everybody playing and cool with each other. If you did join a guild the Guild leaders (at least from my view) didn't try and force you to play a toon a certain way, meaning telling me I need to put my exp points in experience not AA's till I'm at a higher level, I understand that is how some play but I should be in charge of how I want to develop my toon and so if it takes me 5 days to fill my aa's that is me and if you decide to level first then grind for aa's that is you. I found that people would help you whether you were in their guild or not, it really didn't matter everyone just really wanted to play and obtain their personal goals.

So now I come to today, when I started replaying I would spend hours lfg's, and we all know it is a slow and lonely road soloing with one toon. I would do a who all and ask peep to join their group, I can't tell you how many people would say you're not in my guild so I can't help, or ignore me out right. So I joined a Guild and for about 2 days things were ok they would group and to get me levels, but i wanted my aa's for tradeskills so I was putting exp in aa's I was told by guild leaders that that isn't why I was bought into the guild, and if i needed something made that they have higher level toons that can make it, and that i needed to focus on leveling.

I don't know about you guys but I play my toons and develop them how I want to, I pay for the account not you or anyone else.

So this mind set has led me to boxing myself, CWTN and Sic.. thanks fellas for all your hard work and making the experience a good one for me, now I enjoy playing again.

So Daybreak really should have no problems with us boxing, it is only a win win for the company, why ? a lot of us have more than 2 or 3 accounts that we pay yearly for I myself have 6, so that's 6 hundred and more from one single person. If we stop playing this dinosaur will go extinct. Also I still have the 20 year old mind set of grouping with just about anyone you don't need to be a part of my guild, or what ever if you are good peeps I'll drop a toon and let you in my group. It's funny Firestormers for example (a guild on my server) wouldn't let me group or help me powerlevel because I wasn't in their guild. Update.. I've powerleveled 5 of there toons from 85 - 110 or so, and now they've been begging me to join their guild (and now I won't be). Some would say screw them and yes to some extent. I help people get their epic's and what not. I give shit away all the time.

I box for my development of toons I'm not making money from it, I'm not hoarding areas from people, I do a "camp check" setup and run, if peeps want an item from a "Named" I let them have it.

They should really dig into the impact we (at least myself) give to the community. I just want to play the game, get my toons leveled and not sit for hours lfg, and dealing with rude people.

So if it weren't for these tools a lot of us wouldn't be paying for 20 accounts, we wouldn't be playing at all, our accounts are revenue and revenue keeps them employed.

if you agree or disagree let me know what you think.

 

[microscope]

You could disable MQ across the whole game, let them suffer the loss of thousands of accounts. Focus on EQ Emulator which could live forever. Maybe team up and harvest more data. I think continuing to try to 'work with' DBG when they laugh in the face of players who buy multiple things and then get banned.. is like being part of an abusive relationship.

 

[Kambic]

To me it seems like there is really only one question: is Daybreak willing to sit down at the table and talk?

If not, then it kind of doesn't matter what we do, which is to say, just keep doing what we're doing and not worry about it too much. People will come and go based on how they are affected by suspensions (or bans) or not.

If they are, then that really changes things. We can find out what they want from us and what we can expect from them. That conversation happened before, but under a prior regime, so refreshing that would be great if it's in the cards.

For me personally, barring #2, I plan to play until it feels like it isn't worth it anymore. One of my accounts is a lifetime account (which I'm sure they'd love to whack) and I pay for 5 more subs (Rizlona). All 6 accounts got hit with a 7 day awhile back that got overturned with a petition, and more recently a single 7 day which they wouldn't overturn. I wasn't real happy about that, and I'm waiting to see if that is going to become a regular occurrence or not. I really want to ride Rizlona to live, but I'm not going to do it taking 7-days (or worse) here and there; I've got plenty of other games I could be playing (or other RL shit).

At the end of the day Daybreak is competing for my time/money; ball's in their court.

 

[Jetanroth]

Well im at work and was looking at my email and looks like they are starting to ban not just suspend. Been a good run folks, without RG i would have never returned. i had more fun than i ever did playing this game. I dont know which act it is but they are all 20+ years old. my question is can i get some money back? Because i did 6 yearly subscriptions and im going to go ahead and cancel it all.

Thanks all for the fun and gluck!!!

Damn, that sucks man. Clearly they are not fucking about at this point. I have had multiple suspensions but have never had a ban yet. But, if they do, I will take the same route you are. That will be my sign from God that its time to stop dumping time and money into this game.

 

[lanceval]

Canceled 4 account and forego buying TOL on any account.

That said, it was also due to the terrible quality of their last expansions lately, I am just not enjoying them.

DPG’s revenue will decrease in any cases also because of the end of confinement measures everywhere.

Nobody can play this game by the rules unless one have a massive amount of time to put in it.

I Will check next year, if i am in the mood of playing EQ, what the status is on live.

I switched to other hobbies.
Actually there are a few decent games and it is much cheaper.
I will have a go on EQEMU later during cold season.

 

[mrmelkor]

TLDR Band together by unsubscribing and not buying expans as a community much like they did on reddit with GME stocks lol
cheers!

You know I get it, and it makes a lot of sense to hit a corporation in the wallet; that's all they really care about (and are REQUIRED to care about legally for the shareholds). But there is definitely some irony in a situation where they seem to be saying "go away if you use xyz tools" and so the people using xyz tools say "okay bye" as their only way to fight back. Wait that's not irony that's just kind of sad.

-M

 

[519helvis]

after purchasing ToL over time on 12 accts and than having 11/12 toons suspended twice in one month i like many others decided to take a breather from the game and will not give DPG anymore money until hopefully either things cool down (hoping this is just a PR stunt to appease the karens of norrath) or a somewhat pliable solution is found. ill continue to participate in RG community as its more insightful and entertaining than anything else eq related. thanks RG and all those involved for the fun! hope to maybe one day run MQ again! until than ill watch from the sidelines =)
i was late to the party on up and down voting but the top two winning ideas seem like the most credible possibilities. staying off the Truebox servers is a no brainer. messing with DPGs cash cow wont solve anything. and perhaps with a drop in subs theyll realize servers like rizlona would also prove to be the cash cow they need to get that lost sub profit back

 

[Redbot]

I would also be interested in playing around with this to bring ModBot for EMU up to date. I assume the current MQ on EMU is 'old' MQ2 and when you say work has begun, you are specifically talking about 'new' MacroQuest?

Yup, and here's the work beginning:

EQEmu compatibility work · macroquest/macroquest@148bf4a

Scripting and plugin platform for EverQuest. Contribute to macroquest/macroquest development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[william12]

Even if an agreement existed, it was never leverage.

Respectfully disagree. If you have something I want you have leverage over me to get it. They wanted MQ to not work on TLP servers and they got that. We got left a lone for years basically as long as we were not afk and at the keyboard. Things have obviously changed. So why are we still not allowing MQ on TLP servers ?

 

[MadaSnave]

Why does everyone question humanities benevolence?

Diplomatic talks are normal. Regardless of the power dynamics. Leverage is rarely needed for a dialogue.

I agree. Talking doesn't hurt. In fact not talking could be very harmful.

 

[Naeeldar]

To what end? I'm having trouble seeing the value in this.

It’s really simple until they use the ban hammer - it means they are 100% concerned about recurring monthly revenue and also the annual number. Since htey aren‘t using it - it suggests they don’t want to push us away due to MRR/ARR impact. Otherwise why not ban in mass? I know we have seen limited bans but they aren’t doing mass.

It suggests they are a bit afraid of telling the private equity firm owners they lost 5 or 7% points in revenue. THat may not seem like a lot but on a game this old it’s huge. How much we are all worth is the question. But given what I spend on XPACS and station cash - I suspect we are on high dollar customers and losing those is worse. Also despite the fact that many buy krono to pay for their chars - thats also a huge benefit because it gets liability off the books which is also huge.

I still think they don’t want us to leave. OTherwise I question why no ban hammer. It feels like they are testing to se if we will willingly change behavior . Which I won’t - despite having invested $3k in to the game this year alone.

 

[Naeeldar]

I get your argument about revenue. I'm not (yet) convinced that a bunch of us unsubbing will have any impact on this matter, but it doesn't matter because that wasn't what was suggested.

What was suggested was a weekend when we don't log into EQ. Not logging in for two days doesn't affect revenue in any way.

You could say "well they'll know we're serious", but that's a joke because we aren't. Those that are serious about unsubbing have already done so (as seen previously in this thread).

Not logging in for two days is the equivalent of a high-school walk-out. The teachers get a free day without babysitting other people's kids, and we get left with more homework than we started with.

It’s more about showing a united front. Right now even thoguh I got one suspension I’ve missed several. I’m on the fence. If i take a 7 day sit once every 2-3 months I’m fine with it. If it becomes a monthly thing. I’m gone.

One thing they’ve done smartly is not hit so many people like the latter option thta more walk out. However if enough of my accounts get hit every month, again I’m out.

Anyway.I suspect some are on the fence right now thinking: how often is my time out? will it be come a ban? Is this a nuisance or a real problem? So far it’s hard to judge.

 

[Naeeldar]

It might not gain us anything but we're basically doing it for nothing now. The gesture of goodwill benefited the larger MQ community as a whole but that ship has sailed.

Your only looking at one side of the equation. The other side is it could have even more people vocal about it on the forums. Right now if you look at the forums it’s literally the same 5-7 people praising it. Not al ot of people backing it. And DPG is leaving it open for some time typically before closing finally. So they are definitley monitoring.

 

[ASmith50]

That is referred to as a jail server, has its ups and downs but mostly looked at as a non starter due to the amount of drama and lawlessness that is expected with that type of server.

 

[rogal]

Knightly and I took it to PM and kicked it around to not disrupt the thread. I never once compared it gift cards nor ever thought of that as an example. When you collect a payment you absolutely cannot ALWAYS declare it as recognized revenue as you have an obligation to meet certain performance requirements - at least if you are applying GAAP like a normal company. And every CFO I’ve ever worked with is very careful with their teams about when and how to recognize revenue - despite payments being collected earlier in the process.

Regardless of all that and I appreciate Knightly’s thread (lot of good info in there) there is still implications on how they recognize the revenue against the internal product for profit - so there’s a different type of implication for the devs. It would venture to guess they attribute krono to which game its consumed in since that ultimately will drive profitability. If so the original point I was trying to make was that people think the consumption of krono for boxed chars isn’t helpful - which is absolutely not true.

Chris Wilson talks about this a little in baseclast podcast for Path of Exile in relation to micro transactions and how they spread the revenue in their financials.

 

[Sifter228]

so i went to the eq forums to see what all is being said on there. dear god that place is more toxic then a nuke test site that was a landfill before testing.

It's pretty amazing to see so much passion about something they know so little about. It's really like seeing people who read books about EQ talking about EQ, even though they've never actually played EQ.

Lots of good ideas there if you've been playing for a month and tons of bad ideas and info if you've been playing for a few years.

 

[Knightly]

Yeah, Bentio is a troll crusader on a mission. Which is why I think they should have a forum for All Access feedback only. All these F2P accounts people just create to play ForumQuest, maybe take some feedback from the paying customers and see how the view shifts.

 

[EvilBarny]

That Benito guy...wow.

He has tons of time to troll there because he’s always lfg

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

The point of the two days is simple, either we are noticable or not.

Exactly. There are anecdotes here that some servers are turning into ghost towns. This could be a simple way to demonstrate to both DBG and to the vocally anti-boxer crowd what kind of impact we have. It's also why I suggested we take down our bazaar mules and buff bots for those 2 days.

If they don't even notice the blip then it's no harm, no foul.

 

[Hazzard]

How much support is there for not logging in to EQ the 31st and first?

Please, consider a two day walkout and then do it. Only way to find out if we are indeed, Legion.

I haven't logged in since they nailed 3 of my accounts last week. My holiday was up last night and i have been playing WoW and Dead by Daylight and watching Hockey.

I miss it every now and then and go to log on and stop myself and go do something else. As of right now they Lost 12 of my monthly accounts and i was planning on going gold on my other 6 i was messing around with on FV.

I might take a break for a bit and see how everything works out as of right now i don't plan on billing or using kr so i can play for 2 weeks out of the month.

 

[Knightly]

Yeah no.

 

[Knightly]

All Access has nothing to do with trolls. One can have many All Access accounts and be one of the top trolls over there. They can change the "new member" label in settings.

Oh, no, I know people will still troll. But paying for a second account to post what you want to say mostly falls in the favor of boxers. Versus posting under random free to play accounts.

Because it was platitudes like a reddit post. And it was at the expense of my post. It's also terrible manners/netiquette to reply to a post making that many points and you go to town on one point and disregard everything else in the post.

I didn’t take that post at all the way you took it, just for a different perspective.

 

[Atheos32]

Make unorthodox groups

Use mercenaries

3 bards with a tank merc supported by 2 healer mercs would be an example.

Pet groups

Druid DPS groups

Charm pet groups

Paladin groups


If the crusaders are looking for 6 character groups with optimized trinity + DPS~ADPS then don't give that to them

I was running a non-standard group, to avoid detection from day 1. I still got hit though I avoided it for a long time and arrogantly thought I was safe. I admittedly didn't use mercs so maybe that'll do the trick. But I was running full ranged DPS to avoid the obviousness of melee automation and drove the Sk with MQ2Eskay for assistance with combat but pulled manually and generally way more than 1 at a time in overland content. Despite the advice of others I steered away from "optimal group setups" in favor of niche setups like pet classes. Must admit SK, Chanter, Shm, Necro, Mage, and Beastlord were a fun setup.

 

[woobs]

Just starting up on emu it was fun and frustrating to get things up and going. I will absolutely agree with Coldblooded, emu needs some sweet luvvins (much like druids on live). My biggest concern is that emu is so far behind live (/cry for big bags and advloot). However, I LOVE LOVE LOVE that I'm not an made to feel like a degenerate to society. Its really cool to see folks talk "oh yea, use /bcga //end or /bcaa //end" in chat and give folks box/bot advice.

Same here. Tried out Lazarus. I spent the whole day just getting my usual UI up and running (I have been using a variation of Infiniti Blue for many years). I am not sure how I feel about actually levelling characters up from Level 1 again, but I like that I can log in and tinker. Now comes ModBot.

Things will be even better once MQ comes to EMU!

 

[MadaSnave]

as a side note, you also get to see some of the lies SOE told after 04 and the bard aoe dot nerf. its literally one line of code on the server to make the spells do damage to a moving target. dev's said it couldn't be un done in post back in 05.

 

[Sifter228]

I can see EMU being a very good thing for RG and the RG community and the EMU community as a whole.

The levels of cooperation and resources available or made available alone is a huge win for everyone.

 

[speathdell]

I canceled my 7 accounts 1.5 months ago. The reason was the suspension of one account.
I don't put any more money into a game that can only be played solo on TLP servers. I preferred playing on Live, but that is rather tedious and less fun without MQ2.

The time from 2000 to 2022 was a great time, but living under the sword of Damocles and having to worry that my ancient accounts will be banned I find unacceptable.

The current operators of Everquest have tightened the reins properly and as long as it remains so, I'm just a spectator.

At this point I would like to thank you for the many cool programs and tools that have supported the last few years in the game very pleasant.

see you again

 

[L8erGator]

Same here. Tried out Lazarus. I spent the whole day just getting my usual UI up and running (I have been using a variation of Infiniti Blue for many years). I am not sure how I feel about actually levelling characters up from Level 1 again, but I like that I can log in and tinker. Now comes ModBot.

Things will be even better once MQ comes to EMU!

Woobs, I have somewhat of a vested interest in your engagement in Emu as I've experimented with Modbot in an effort not to have different macros I'm using for Live and various emus. If you want some GCs or plat or something to make your time on Laz easier let me know. I am personally vested in MB being well oiled on Emu so want to do my part.

 

[blueadept]

Now if DB said it would allow MQ (with certain stipulations) for GOLD players only. It would give them an influx of cash flow. I would probably be willing to sub a team of 6 full time. I know, it is just wishful thinking....

 

[Mishka]

I think some top guilds will fold during the summer.

Before when i logged in, there usually was 10-20 toons online in my guild. A main plus his/her alt doing somethings, lately I rarely see anyone online outside of raids. I also log within 5 mins, as there are noone online.

Is the death of MQ, the death of EQ?

 

[surfdog21]

I think some top guilds will fold during the summer.

Before when i logged in, there usually was 10-20 toons online in my guild. A main plus his/her alt doing somethings, lately I rarely see anyone online outside of raids. I also log within 5 mins, as there are noone online.

Is the death of MQ, the death of EQ?

No. It's one of the seasons of EQ is all. Some years its hotter than others... Back in the day of serious raiding as a raid leader, it was always like this in the summer. I remember when Halo (the game) came out, it decimated some guilds during raid time.

Not trying to derail here but, I quit raiding years ago after burn out. LFG was dead and I discovered MQ and love love love it because of the lack of groups. IF for some reason MQ was no more, I would probably go back to an end game raiding guild as I don't need MQ to raid.

 

[nookiecookie]

Do like butters #WeinersOut

 

[Redemption44]

Damn, that sucks man. Clearly they are not fucking about at this point. I have had multiple suspensions but have never had a ban yet. But, if they do, I will take the same route you are. That will be my sign from God that its time to stop dumping time and money into this game.

Sorry to hear that buddy, i've been suspended for my 7 characters about 8 months ago and a month later i unsubbed them and told them if they change thier policies of suspending and banning people for 3rd part software i might come back.

 

[Sic]

The Jail server is basically the ZEK server from what I understand. Free transfer to Zek server and then I think you cannot get off it either

It would be interesting what that server is like and how much it is monitored

No that is not the same in the slightest from what a jail server is historically been.

Even holly said it is a better thing in theory than in reality.

 

[Virkilian]

I hate DBG, negative respect, same for SOE. EQ was a masterpiece made by people who are no longer involved with it. Everyone else has proven for decades they have no clue how to replicate it, they have no idea what made it almost a household name to begin with and what made it special, or even what separates it from every other MMO. They proved this with failure after failure and syphoned EQ's profits down that huge ravenous toilet. They disrespected and damaged their own creation, and their own audience, as they did every step of the game's life, pioneering concepts like microtransactions and p2w all at the expense of their game and their players. I always thought of them as one of the worst companies ever, stumbled into a one hit wonder and then pissed it all up the wall in the most disgusting fashion. The whole idea of this "Truebox" thing is completely idiotic, and just another example of why they are a morons and don't deserve to be in business. It is indefensibly stupid, as is everything they do. All their crappy fly by night TLPs and just everything. They suck. I know everyone loves EQ and you wanted us to respect the creation or whatever, but I've played EQ since 1999 and never felt any different. I see it like a child, the most wonderful child prodigy, but it's parents are pure trash. I like my EQ Emu, it can feel solitary but there are other multiplayer games for me. But I like having the pure EQ experience without worrying about some idiotic GM team watching over me and making stupid choices and making money off me in the process. I have no part in this, but I don't think they deserve your money or efforts. My advice would be to fight against them.

As someone who has also started playing in 1999, I love this. Such a passionately built game that was abused and molested for years by sheer incompetence and greed.

well, you weren't suspended for using mq by not using mq =p

myseq/seq have definitely been annoyances and complains and definitely a "third party software" item by dbg since they existed

Unless they’re detecting the program in memory or even just being installed. I’m which case I was suspended for possession. Which should only be a misdemeanor :p

In some ways I’m glad they did it before I had a moment of weakness and gave them my money reactivating my other characters. I came really close to doing it.

For now, they’ve reminded me that leaving my 12 accounts unsubscribed is the best way to go.

 

[Redemption44]

I feel ya brother. I'm staying unsubbed till the time is right myself if that time never comes oh well had a blast in years past.

 

[Redbot]

Just giving you a hard time q8 I don't want people to confuse Truebox and TLP

 

[Lidori]

I have looked at that and for whatever reason decided not to use it. But it's not just //saying things. Telling the group to gate, camp, or click Stein. Never ever using "Mimic Me" because of this, so I have to alt tab to each toon to hand the Magical Orb of Magicalness to the quest NPC over and over. etc and so forth.