Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (2 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Blood]

I honestly don't think I would have come back to the game if it wasn't for RG, MQ2, and CWTN Plugins personally I don't have much time I have a family, I work more than full-time. I think it's also important to note I am not here to vilify or shame anyone for how they chose to play the game. And I have had a lot of people approach me while I play usually I start the interactions as I offer to buff or rez people and there are a few who I have dropped a box for a group with often now but the questions are all the same to me about boxing.

1. The community all assumes we are automating our game and walking away from our keyboards. (I personally think this is the minority and Redbot, Sic and a bunch of other great people make it clear DO NOT DO THAT).
2. they all seem to think we have 60+ accounts and we take over an entire zone while AFKing away from our keyboards.
3. Or they seem to think we are a bunch of un-friendly sweaty neckbeards with no lives.

Personally, I think this is why I have been so open with the people that have asked me in-game why I Multibox. I am here trying to enjoy this content while progressing and due to my own time restrictions I choose to multi-box so I can play the content I want to play when I want to play it. I think it's important to be kind to people as it costs us nothing to be nice while potentially helping someone out on their own multi-boxing journey. and at the same time show them we are not a bunch of basement-dwelling neckbeards that want to own all the Kronos in the game as if this is some sort of measure of success.

In my short time being back the community at RG has been awesome to me and extremely helpful and super friendly and I hope that anyone asking questions about this community or multi-boxing comes here first.

 

[Naeeldar]

I’ll just say this i think it would be rash to escalate until we really see where this is going. Frankly if I have to take a timeout every 2 months to appease some folks who think we are cheating on the forums - I’m ok with a 1 week break. And so far for the most part we haven’t been seeing bans. This to me says they are still trying to toe a line of not alienating our money - as frankly we we would see bans by now considering how many people have been hit.

IF we escalate we probably become more attractive to use the ban hammer on. I’d like to see i this settles down to something every 2-3 months. Right now it seems like more of a test to see if they can geth us to stop using MQ. which I don’t see happening.

so not much to add other than don’t escalate until we know where this is going - we don’t have enough time / data points to understand the real intent yet but it sure doesn’t seem to be to get us to stop paying them i.e. playing.

 

[Restina]

I am always a bit confused by the reluctance to allow on truebox at this time and let me try to explain why.

RG isn’t bypassing truebox at all. You still need a PC per account. The point of truebox has always been about open world contested raid mobs and the scalability of VM or just multiple clients monopolizing those mobs. This was because of the first two servers being 72 mages insta killing raid mobs. RG doesn’t help that scalability.

Now we can continue with this stance of not allowing it on truebox because we think it’s the right thing to do. Nobody else is playing by that rule though which only leaves a potentially exploit heavy build available day 1 of every truebox server or self compiles of the source code of RG anyways.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.

There isn’t any chance that redbot allows hacks in and our community wouldn’t ask for that. The paid plugins of note aren’t usable even if the community wants truebox restrictions lifted. We can’t take legal action. There is no way to go underground because it’s not that we aren’t secret that’s causing the bans.

 

[Knightly]

Do we pose any threat to DBG? I'm asking because, I don't know and assume that we do not.

It depends on from what perspective you consider “threat” but I would mostly say no in any regard.

 

[Kar-]

Cancelled my 4 accounts today. Best way to show them they are going down the wrong path for this! If and when they relax their position on MQ then I'll be back and resub. Until then I'll continue to read these forums!

Kar

 

[durango773]

While I have many friends who MQ, I have many that dont. Ive been on the same server for 21 years. Ill take a ban before a transfer to a jail server, since its pretty much the same.

 

[Hazzard]

So i just finished forcing myself to read the trend on the EQ forum and all i can say is WoW.
Maybe i'm wrong but i was on Rizlona in a guild there and i did more as a boxer to help people get epics get flags farm spells then any non boxer in the guild did. I have never came across any boxers that have been assholes like some of these people are making us all out to be. I"m not saying they are not out there i know they are i just think there is more boxers and mass boxers that are willing to help people then there is that want to make the game hell for people.

So Buddy can box Raids and sell loot for Kr there a fix for that don't buy it. That's What i don't understand with these people if i'm boxing in an instance zone or boxing a raid that's in a dz how am i effecting their game play? If i leave my toons on 24/7 farming shit in a dz or a zone on one goes to and i'm making money how does that effect them? It doesn't at all.

I know a lot of people on Rizlona that bought GoD and OOW loot because they wanted to better their toons and enjoy the game and they were single toon players. I also know boxers who went out of their way to run raids to gear people and their alts to help them out.

We had one guy in the guild i was in would bitch and bitch and bitch about people using MQ till it came time to raid and we didn't have enough then it was ok and he shut up and didn't care as long as the raid was full and he could get his DKP. IMO these are the people that are crying on the EQ page about people boxing and using MQ. When they don't get any gain out of it they want you banned but when they can gain from it it's all good. They bitch the loudest in public about it and either use it themselves or have friends they get shit from that use it and that's ok to them.

 

[Restina]

It's clear RG respects true box. Doesn't matter if you think it's not an agreement. Allowing RG to run on true box would be seen as an act of agresssion.

I still don’t get this. Act of aggression to whom? DPG is suspending and banning for it on non truebox. It’s 10000% not allowed on any DPG server. There is a reason that only Holly and Dreamweaver were in the Rizlona discussion group about MQ usage. Absor and JChan are against any MQ at all to the core of their being.

 

[dannuic]

lol

 

[Grpsmashin]

If no communication with DPG happened yet , that is probably not going to ever happen.
It means they are not likely to change their policy.

But it is an opportunity to transition to EQEMU.
Having access to the code server side would bring new perspectives.

From my perspective transitioning to EMU would impact DPG more seriously than activating mq on their true box server on the long term.

There is a lively community here, playing all together on EQEMU might even turn to be an awesome experience!

I second this.

I like the idea of this community having a EMU type server all the way up to current content if possible. I would rather pay money to this than give DBG money and risk lossing everything because they would not want to work with us on what we can improve on. This is why i stopped playing because i dont want to lose everything i have built.

 

[Sifter228]

1. If you see people using MQ stupidly or obviously, report them.

Not cool.

 

[Klunk]

I will be honest i dont think there is anything you can do so stop them suspending and banning people,

Take a look on forums or even on facebook as soon as someone mentions MQ its like they have the plague and are the dirtest scum going,
I can understand it i remeber people warping in and ghost killing back in the day, So a lot folk just associate it with all that kind of stuff.

All i can think of is if was more pickzones for people to go in with their group if they bothered about 24/7 camps but guess thats more resources needed

Maybe if was some kinda positive publicity on its mainly people using it to make certain boring mundane tasks easier like most modern mmos have people would think differantly but i doubt it

As for keeping your head down, I orignally started using MQ so i could take on group missions i could not do duoing or three boxing with alt tab ,
The main account i was doing it for my 22 year old account is now perma banned. I didn't piss anyone off i stayed out of busy zones, stopped when people came in to the zone, paused everything if they were in pok, did camp check if were people in the zone and never had one GM come by and say hello.

It didnt stop him getting three suspensions in 7 or 8 weeks ending in a perma ban even though i stopped using MQ after second suspension on that account and only logged him in on a clean pc no MQ even installed and stopped logging him in after the third suspension so the obviously just keep suspending once your tagged

My wifes shammy who is also a 20 year account is on second suspension i have stopped even logging her in and now boxed bard who is 14 years old is on first suspension so he mostly likely get suspended again and again till banned

What pisses me off is years of paying subs and expansions and you still just get a one line email to ban you.

I used no 3rd party software for 21 of them years but even when i stopped logging in that account still got banned without even a reason why just your banned. So whats the point it stopping using MQ if its historical? Once they tagged you now it seems you have had it

I would been happy take suspensions if i had even logged in that account and been doing stuff

I have moved to test made two groups from scratch i wont be giving them a penny . when they ban them groups i will be done with it and try set up my own EMU

 

[Ladon]

I don't necessarily feel compelled to explain nuance and non-literal interpretation of proverbs to somebody that has an Ingsoc banner in their signature.

Black hat, red hat, grey hat, blue hat. None of us are white hats.

 

[Redbot]

I will be honest i dont think there is anything you can do so stop them suspending and banning people,

Take a look on forums or even on facebook as soon as someone mentions MQ its like they have the plague and are the dirtest scum going,

Obviously the discussion will be one-sided on the official forums, but elsewhere when moderators allow people to talk about MQ, the response is fairly positive. The Facebook discussion linked in the OP is a good example.

 

[Snowball]

I had to give Redbot's prompt some thought. If the community were to rally behind a position, it must be one with supportive evidence. After reading through some of the responses, I had to give the topic even more thought. In an early episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Commander William T. Riker poses a rhetorical question, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?" In the case of EverQuest, it is a very complex model to explain, which is why resolving problems is so difficult.

Case 1: Level 1 to Level 13 in The Mines of Gloomingdeep Tutorial.
Starting in the tutorial of EverQuest, a player is fully empowered to ascend to level 13 through quests and monster slaying experience. The difficulty is not overwhelming (especially with a healing mercenary), and a player can complete the introductory quests without taking a single death. Players do not need special software to complete these tasks. If a disruptive player continually camps a named kobold or goblin, it would obstruct progression. If the player is AFK and obstructing the progression of others, it can be interpreted as a social wrong. Forbidding the use of 3rd party software solves this problem without too much argument. There are quality-of-life benefits, such as the enhanced map, but removing MQ or other software does not change the game very much in this scenario. The purpose of this case is to illustrate a clear scenario where MQ is not needed for success.

Case 2: Level 85 in The Grounds.
To save time, a Heroic Character upgrade can be purchased which boosts a character to level 85. Many of the skills are boosted (like swimming) and the spell book is filled to level 85. At this point in the game, the character is specialized. An enchanter would not be swinging a club like in the tutorial. For a solo player, it requires much more skill to complete quests, farm equipment, and gain experience at level 85. Players could find themselves helpless to get any quests done, which is a bad spot. With poor player populations, a LFG request falls on deaf ears in 2022. At level 85, specialization is a given. How can a player's character join a group with other specialized characters at the proper level? The EverQuest game design today depends completely on other players. For example, a character could get level 120 buffs or an acquaintance can power-level the character. However, this again is dependent on other players. Power-leveling services for payment are regularly broadcasted. Work-arounds such as this are not part of brilliant game design, rather they are damage control for a game that has become stratified (layered) by its multi-expansion design.

*Suppose that low pay caused all elementary school teachers in a population between the grades of 3-5 to quit. the school district having no plan whatsoever for the students throws them in with 6th grade students. The surviving grade 6 teachers will expect the students to know multiplication and division as well as some level of US geography and history. To get their kids caught up, some parents may enroll them in special classes to get them caught up, for a fee of course. Necessity is the mother of invention.

This is where the market for third party software is both empowering and popular. The greatest advantage is running additional characters automatically. Instead of paying 3500 Daybreak points and feeling like a sucker as your character dies repeatedly, third software opens the door to superhero-level powers. The villain Sheev Palpatine said, “The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.” Arthur C. Clarke wrote, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Just as Deep Blue defeated Chess Grandmaster Gary Kasparov in 1997, computer software can perform tasks in a manner superior to humans. These software products are magnificent for players hurting for help (like superheroes). Need a full group of five more characters, casting spells and hitting disciplines to successfully kill monsters, complete quests, and farm gear? Third party software fits the bill. Like driverless cars, the software eliminates many of the flaws of human players. This automation is widespread in the commercial world. Supermarkets, Home Depot, Walmart, and even Taco Bell have automated stations to purchase goods. Clerks need to use the restroom regularly, take breaks (by labor law), have territorial drama (just like EverQuest players), and call-in sick. Microsoft Excel can process thousands of calculations, faster and more accurately than a human. For many players, including myself, it was a necessary evil. I had no idea how to play other character classes at level 85, and the human players were not available for my characters to progress.

Case 3: Level 120 in Maiden's Eye.
The current maximum level is 120. Most players know what a boxed group looks like. Whether it is a group using /autofollow or the "come to me" macro, the automated movements are in straight lines, revealing the software's unnatural efficiency. Multi-client broadcasts can execute a /say ready command to the entire group at once. The software has made the player a superhero. In Maiden's Eye, one monster drops an augmentation that is not awarded in any chest from the missions. Sic has beautifully demonstrated how to beat every Terror of Luclin mission on video, so any group can farm gear through the missions. It was like a piñata exploding when the timer was just 3 hours. However, since this particular item was not on the drop tables, it required hunting in the static zone. Parking at a camp spot is the specialty of automation software in general. Humans have lapses in attention and become careless or discouraged. The software does not. After several hours, the augmentation was looted. Each character in the group was level 120 and has the maximum amount of AAs.

What is the issue? Well, if you take away the third-party software, very little of the content I just described could be completed. Many mission scenarios cannot be completed with fewer players, unless they are highly skilled and raid-geared, like those impressive solo videos on YouTube. Personally, I cannot convince any of my friends or family to play EverQuest. It is just not their thing. So, it has become a 1-player game for me. I imagine that for other conventional players, assembling a group that can beat the missions and farm a rare augmentation is also a major challenge. The gap is prohibitive, experiencing either superhero success or unplayable failure. Not to be unreasonably negative, but it is doubtful that the game's programmers can resolve this gap.

Case 4: True Box Servers
These rules make sense, just like the banned substances list for the Olympic games. Some players do not want superhero-level characters in their game environment. I respect that.

Case 5: Raiding Guilds
This survives as the highest level of sportsmanship in the EverQuest universe. The ranking is maintained on the Elite Gamers Lounge website. Just as athletic organizations forbid cheating, both guild officers and DBG personnel purge members that use third-party software. This makes sense.

In conclusion, there might be too many angles to define an official community position. As an addict (unreasonable by nature), I continue to pay money for my multiple subscriptions to this computer game because I enjoy it immensely. I re-played levels 1-13 in the tutorial for fun. I played a small band of characters from level 85 to 90, because I lack the steady patience of Maskoi to wait until level 100. In my most mature superhero group, I enjoy gameplay at level 120, well aware of the risks. Being honest, back in 1999 I was hooked, even with that stupid spell book blocking the screen. Fortunately, I have resources to replace subscriptions that have trouble. There is no question that being a superhero violates the game's rules, but whether it is the achievements or that "ding" sound, the superhero-style game is very difficult to give up. The problem I see with an emulated server option is when a superhero player hits the ceiling. Omens of War had a level cap of level 70, well below the current level cap of 120.

Sorry for saying a whole lot of nothing. There was just too much to consider to make it black and white.

 

[an_image]

I work in technology in Silicon Valley and have done so for years, including stints at a few startups and some company's you know (I'm a computer scientist/software engineer). It's not about technology, its not about the user experience, its not the cool factor, at the end of the day for companies like DBG its a business and its always about the money, particularly in the C-suite. I think with the new ownership, the current EQ leadership has been given a bit of free reign to go after "cheaters" in the hopes that it will increase revenue by returning Everquest to its heyday and if we only get ride of cheaters/botters, gamers will flock back to Everquest and revenues will increase because obviously botters/cheaters are what has been driving declines in subscriptions. When the acquisition occurred, incoming ownership at EG7 were probably pitched this approach by JChan and her ilk and were given the green light so as to be given a chance to see how it goes.

I disagree, I think that this will not happen (revenue increase). In fact, I think players like me who have/had limited playtime and who's best gaming experience in EQ is running my own 6 box crew who abides by the common "play nice policy" are the sort of constant revenue streams that per subscription software businesses would crave. With that in mind I think the only real pressure to be applied is a financial one. This is what businesses understand at the end of the day. With that in mind, after catching my 1st suspension in 22 plus years and reading the writing on the wall I cancelled all 10 of my gold accounts. I see no reason to give business to a company who clearly does not want my business.

I think if you read the tea leaves this may be a viable approach but it will take time. I ask myself the question that I'm sure others have asked. Why only suspensions? If the VV and its ilk are so detrimental to the game, why only start with suspensions, why not go nuclear and just outright ban anyone found using automation? Because they want the revenue. From my perspective why on earth then should I pay for accounts I cannot use due to the ongoing crackdown? Its a bit of a catch 22 for them - piss me off and people like me and we go away along with our large monthly outlay, don't run me out of town and the white knights and vocal minority who whing about automation might go away with their single account.

It may take a couple of quarters each to see revenues contract. At that point if it does, the the people in the C-suite for EG7 will have some uncomfortable questions to put to the leadership at DPG if they are at all competent as to what they are doing. Its also possible that the amount of subscribers like myself (multiple accounts, buys kronos etc to feed my bot army, always buys the expansions, etc) are a minority of subscribers and trying to hit DPG in the wallet isn't viable, only they have the numbers - the fact that they aren't going all out ban tells me they need us financially and in the long run if financial pressure is applied they will have to come to an accommodation. In any case, in keeping with the times I'm applying my own financial sanctions against DBG (though I will keep subscribed to Redguides in the hopes you all come up with a solution.) For now I'm replaying Fallout....

Just wanted to say well-written and makes 100% sense to me. I think you bring up two great points:

1. There are things that our devs can do to de-escalate or help resolve.
2. As a community, there's a separate conversation or decision we need to have/make at the "town-square" level on what our responses should be

My response to all this non-sense came over a year ago and mirrored your own. I stopped purchasing all their products with real world currency. I just enjoy the game in FTP mode, and grind plat for krono. I never say never but a lot would have to change within DBG's policies before I'd sub again. Like many here, there's no eq for me without mq/vv/cwtn plug-ins.

As Murtaugh would say...my wrists can't take and...

 

[Psy]

I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.

After reading Sic's post about the "jail" sever, I also agree it's not a good idea. The Rizlona option where there are rules and CS to deal with the aholes would be a good solution and it can be proposed to DPG, but I see little reason to try that route since they are suspending/banning on that server as well and it was setup basically to do what we do. I'm ok with the occasional 7/14 day vaca and I'm sure my family would support it, but the potential to lose accounts I setup in 1999 permanently bothers me because who knows if things will change down the line again

I'm in Silicon Valley as well as @skaffloctz and time is an issue for me as well. I only get so much time to play and w/o my 6 crew, I'm not willing to play the endless LFG game. I'm also not willing to patronize a company that clearly does not want my business. I agree that in the end, a corporation is ultimately about profit. Jchan and others have those above them they answer to and if they drive away enough of us and revenue declines, there may be some changes coming from higher up. The real "maybe" in this approach is how many MQ (and other software users) make up their revenue. The only way I know of to find out is canceling. 6 cancelled here in the beginning of April. If we do make up a significant number of the population as I think we do, then they may just stop doing what they are doing and go back to chasing those that don't play nice. I doubt they will EVER say MQ is ok, but stopping suspending/banning basically says that. However, I will continue to support this community with revenue as I really love it and appreciate all the effort that has gone into making it what it is and it will be nice to utilize if this current BS at DPG stops.

 

[Knightly]

I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.

I think there’s a difference. I don’t think anyone actually wants a jail server (with no enforcement and lawlessness), just one they can play in peace. But we, as a community, could take that stance and all move to Rizlona. It’s not really any different than the reverse stance on PvP (that if people want a PvP server they should play on the PvP servers that exist).

Of course, Rizlona is not yet at Live so it’s not taking character transfers from Live and it’s missing content that Live has so that's probably more of a long-term strategy -- and it doesn't satisfy people who like the FV ruleset. And then people have their friends on other servers. But I personally think Rizlona is the best one to use as our own server. It was a boxing server in spirit and supporting that is valuable to our community. It also matters that Rizlona is pay to play right now, which means it's supported monetarily -- putting our money where our mouth is.

Still, Live in 2025 hurts.

 

[Knightly]

We can take a stance on something and have our own beliefs regardless of what other people do. The people who were paying for MQ2Ic cracks in the past and are paying for bypasses now may be feeding into someone's profit, but that doesn't impact me at all. It's also not my responsibility to keep teach people how to use MQ on Truebox safely. Nor is it RedGuides imperative to change the stance "because people are already doing it."

The teenage sex analogy doesn't work, unless your assumption is that teenagers without education are paying prostitutes it's really not equivalent here. Nor are there societal equivocations in illicitness and it also doesn't work because there's no appeal to authority like you're implying with DPG. Teenage sex wasn't illegal prior to education, though I will give you that there are consequences.

If you wanted a real world equivalence, you're probably better off going with drug use or gun control over sex. You can relate that to state law versus federal law and RedGuides can be a state and then you can say what other states and eventually other countries are doing. But, as I've said at least twice now, my stance isn't my stance because I think "DPG will go easier on us" -- it's never been about that for me. So that line of thought is already coming from a place of misconception.

But I also disagree with you that MQ usage on Truebox is just as prevalent as it is on live. I can appreciate your experience, but I also know where your experience comes from and I believe that skews your viewpoint. Regardless of all that, we're talking in the RedGuides Community and I guarantee if we took a poll of "Are you using MQ on Truebox?" the vast majority regardless of capability or otherwise would say "no." So I posit: RedGuides contains the majority of MacroQuest users, the majority of RedGuides does not use MacroQuest on Truebox. Therefore, it cannot be as prevalent on Truebox as it is on Live for the simple fact that the majority of the majority aren't in that group.

But that's neither here nor there with my opinion on why we shouldn't support a boxing software on a server designed for not boxing. And my opinion is just that, one opinion, I was explaining why I have that opinion but if I were you I wouldn't put too much weight on it. There are lots of other opinions and while my stance on it is what it is, I don't feel extremely strongly about it other than I believe that boxing on a Truebox server at the start hurts more than it helps.

 

[Zeusdracco]

to me its very simple. money talks. period.
ive switched to wow...

they no longer have my 8 subs paying towards their coffers. this is a witch hunt pure and simple.

They should have at least made an attempt to understand why people box. instead they simply targeted us and said enjoy your time off for cheating. I ate my suspension... didnt play for 2 weeks.. and then they suspended my other 7 accounts... btw, thats 3 different email addies.. mine and a couple friends. so they are absolutely targeting ISP's once they hit your first account. Im totally cool with paying my punishment. im not cool with being punished again when i have clearly been towing the line.

Im good with whatever you guys come up with to combat this.

Personally i think a formal letter should be written and signed by us all and sent to them explaining exactly why we box... i doubt having an understanding of why would change anything but u cant say WE tried if nobody told them what to try to fix.

for me.. true box is fine at lower lv. it wasn't exactly difficult, at higher levels good luck. which means u need a group.. u need some form of CC, u need a slower ( unless u r uber geared, but lets be honest, most of us box because we don't raid )
U need heals.. u need a tank.. u could probably use some dps.. mercs are absolutely trash at higher levels. i suppose healer is ok as long as u r pulling singles.. tank same... anyway...

mercs dont cut it, u cant control/slow/heal/taunt a mob at the same time these days ( after u somehow pull it/them to camp... before they wipe your group ) even if u have good macros, u still need a human to operate at least 1 function. so u need groups...

that right there is why i Box... groups... find a way to create common ground so we can go back to grouping and enjoying the game the way it was meant to be played. Don't call us cheaters because we had to adapt how we play so its a playable game after u change some of what made it playable... My only perspective is this. make groups a thing again. find a way to make that happen.

I absolutely love eq. always have. want to play. want to give my money to play... they need to make this possible.

I mean, ya i can true box and kill trash all day... I can also just go upstairs and watch rerun netflix trash in 50 shades of remake on a theme in g minor.

I really think rather than being combative we should take an approach to help them understand the community and what it offers them as well. straight up, i cant see Eq being around right now if it wasn't for entities like RG. This site is a perfect example of what eq was originally. it was a very connected helpful and enjoyable community of like minded people, and the occasional troll.

they may have paid 300 million dollars, nobody gives away their money just to watch it go up in flames. they need reasoning, honesty and some understanding from us to hopefully show them there are actual benefits from having an engaged community in their game, helping it to grow, rather than bleeding it dry. ( which i have never gotten the impression RG does )

There is so much this community has to offer, we just need to put it in words they can understand.

( at least, i hope ?! )

Anyway, didn't mean for this to be more than 10 words when i stopped to type. GN guys. cya tomorrow

 

[virtuoso65]

• Work on detection methods.
• Reduce EQ interaction as much as possible, switching targets, clicking things etc.

All 9 of my accounts were 7 day suspended, only 3 of those accounts have even been logged in in the last 2 years, two of those accounts were running muleassist in group with my main who is run on a totally separate computer and has never run a macro but does have MQ2 loaded to run the BC commands. I never run unattended, I only run the muleassist macro for those 2 other toons, I do not use the map to target things far away etc. I have tried to play as low profile as possible. I have cancelled my accounts.

 

[skaffloctz]

just wondering all you folks that have canceled multiple accounts did you tell them why? otherwise they will just think people bored of playing

Unsubed 9 accounts including a 22 year old one and filled out the feedback survey saying why - I vaguely considered posting a polite direct message to JChen on linkedin and then decided it was not appropriate. She can sink or swim based on own her decisions - in any case I took my money and walked - we shall see if the drop in user revenue matters. Will take a few quarters one way or another.

 

[shatter]

The parent company of Daybreak is pretty interesting. EG7's stock has cratered over the last few months. At the time of their 2021 annual report, the stock was trading on the Nordic Nasdaq exchange for 35 sek (Swedish currency) and is now trading around 14sek ($1.68 per share). EG7 purchased Daybreak for $300m. Daybreak represents the largest share of operating revenue for EG7.

What I didn't know was EG7 also purchased Piranha Games (MechWarrior Online),. EverQuest and MechWarrior Online are two of my favorite games. I've easily spent over $3000 on MechWarrior Online over the years buying various Mech packs. For EQ, I usually have 6-8 accounts subbed at any time, plus I buy expansions and in-game items (bags, etc.), totaling to something like $2,000 a year (I buy the premium xpacs on most accounts). Essentially, I'm the whale of a customer that EG7 has been targeting.

Last year, EG7 reorganized and now the former CEO of Daybreak is the interim CEO of EG7. After reading the 2021 annual report, it appears that EG7 financed their buying spree by borrowing a ton of money and dilluting their shares (i.e. issuing more shares in an attempt to raise capital). The borrowing means that EG7's various subsidiaries must generate profits to make their debt payments. In their strategic note, EG7 admits that the ability to refinance and rollover their debt is a primary concern going forward. EG7 is built on leverage, and what that means is the firm is sort of a house of cards. When they bought Daybreak, it was a major investment that increased their revenues dramatically. But it is important to keep in mind that revenue is not profit. The largest shareholders of EG7 at this time are institutional investors (banks and PE funds),. They expect results or changes will be made at the executive and operational level.

Based on previous Daybreak financial reports, EQ represents a substantial share of Daybreak's operational revenues and thus EG7's revenue. Given the leveraged strategy EG7 has adopted, maximizing revenue becomes agenda item number for each subsidiary, and with Daybreak being their most visible property, there's considerable pressure on Daybreak to deliver results.

I don't know how exactly Daybreak plans on maximizing revenue by hitting customers like us who sub multiple accounts and are active in the community, but it seems like a poor operational strategy to me. I understand that some of the tools of MacroQuest can be exploited, and I think it's incumbent on our community to distance ourselves from the plat-farmers and the people who cock-block other players by setting up 24/7 camps. We have to understand that those are things that can upset the average Daybreak customer. Remember, Daybreak's job is to maximize revenue for it's holding company so EG7 can continue to deliver shareholder value either through continued acquisitions or dividends.

I've been using Red Guides and Very Vanilla for years now and absolutely believe in the mission. Over the past couple of years I've really dug the CWTN plug-ins and Sic's videos. What those guys are doing is downright amazing. Personally, I can't imagine playing EQ without any of those tools. In game, I play nice. I'm always at my keyboard and I log out when I'm not actively playing. I don't cheat or use any exploits and only run a group so I can go through the content which I wouldn't be able to do if I had to sit around and LFG for hours, days, months. To date I have yet to be visited by a GM or have an account banned.

As for what to do with the ban-waves, I do not think retaliation is a good idea. Ultimately, I believe our best course is stress good behavior, don't camp-hog and in general play nice. We mean just as much to Daybreak's financial success as any other customer they have. As long we don't do things that upset the average game (most of whom don't really give a crap about some guy multi-boxing) we should be fine in the long run. EverQuest is a legacy product, and this means that it has a niche market that likely won't grow in size. Daybreak's major play is to maximize the revenues from their ***existing*** fan-base. That means us, even multi-boxers who use third-party software.

https://www.enadglobal7.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/EG7-AR-2021-ENG.pdf

 

[deathlock]

Here are my thoughts on what we should do as a community to Enjoy the game as we are not here to make money, krono or grief others:

Let's all take a 8 month break, cancel any active subscriptions, no buying new expansions (Hence the 8 months) roughly. Yes, if you really care and love to play the game, it will hurt a little on the inside to take a stance like this, BUT only "if" you claim you "use MQ" just to enjoy playing the game and not make money or pay for subs. So at this point it will be just the people abusing it (whether they claim to or not) and making money for themselves and DBG krono sales. Then you truly will see how much DBG and the white knights care about the game and who truly uses MQ for what purposes. IMO, DBG doesn't give two $hit$ when MQ is making them money, they do seem to care when the white knights cry about MQ groups and raiders doing things they can't do without lfg for 2 hours and even after 2 hours getting the worst group in the world wasting the rest of their night trying to get something done.
It would be SO SUPER EASY to find automated players in zones no one visits or cares about anymore and even in current zones yet DBG WILL allow them to stay there 24/7, just like they are this very moment as I type this post. Most servers have 1-4 players in every Underfoot zones 24/7 for months on end farming plat items. I know this for a FACT as I have watch the same dudes do this for the last 10 months (No exaggeration). Why you ask is DBG not Suspending/Banning people like this. It is because White knights don't give two craps about those MQ users because they are to busy buying kronos FROM DBG to trade for plat, services or goods they are providing for them and their alts. These MQ users does not affect their raiding and grouping in current content and help DBG sell kronos. BUT, You need real people to group in current content, so white knights and guild leaders who worry about their guilds status (on some stupid leader board), and holy than though crusaders don't report those type of MQ users. They go after people like RG users who just want to play the game in peace. Why do I believe this, well..... Because DBG is not suspending the characters in same zone killing 24/7 for 10 months abusing MQ . DBG is suspending MQ users who are doing current content or MQ users who are getting reported by fore mention others. DBG wants to appease these people because the squeaky wheel (no matter the majority or the minority) gets the grease in todays society. PLEASE NOTE, DBG doesn't have the ballz to ban the MQ users as they know it will eventually lead to the sunset of EQ. So they are trying subtle ways to to realign the stars so everyone is happy, including their bottom line.


To be brutally honest, I have this to say... take it or leave it.
When the DBG guy who is in charge of reading this forum reads this and wants to pat me on the back for nailing this thing on the head, just PM me. I already canceled my 7 subs, 2 of which are 20 years old. My advice to you will be Shit or get off the pot. You know how to detect it, we know that you know and yet you still allow us break your EULA. Grow some ballz and start the permanent bans, lets see how we all fair. I see two scenario's.

1: I move on with my life and quit EQ. You actually hold true to your EULA and in the process loose money, plus all of the people who claim to hate MQ loose their pay to win avenue of buying krono for goods and services only MQ users provided. then let the cards fall where they may, at least in the end you had ballz to stand by your EULA instead of beating around the preverbal bush.

2: MQ users go legit because they know they will get banned. If this happens, you will you loose money as they will sub 1 -3 accts tops and not 1 -56 accts (Fact as far as I am concerned). People stop buying krono because their pay to win avenue just dried upped. Let the cards fall where they may and hope you didn't just sunset a 20+ year old game. Because IMO (and this is just an opinion) so many young people are dying to play EQ and lfg for hours on end (Sarcasm here).


I suggest (with all due respect) you come to some kind of agreement though so we can all be happy. I am not sure what this looks like. Hire some RG guys and incorporate vanilla NON afk versions into your game or make your own shit up. There are SO MANY QOL improvement RG offers, if you considered offering things like this in your game, we probably would not be making stupid ass posts like this and you wouldn't have half the issues you have because of MQ. I truly believe that most people use Red Guides MQ to play a 20 year old game they love and that is why it has endured.


See you next year.....

Regards, my 7 accounts and your lost revenue.

 

[Redemption44]

On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.

Amen unsubbed myself and i told them why... I said i might be back if they change thier policies, regarding 3rd party software and unsubbed my 7 accounts i won't be back till' then having fun playing virtual reality.

 

[PallyDPS]

I have not been suspended on any of my 18 accounts yet, but I also play very sparingly and am also nice to players. Without RG I would not have come back to the game and played for any length of time. I am very well known in the game and when I logged back in on my character, people were shocked and initially went out of their way to group with me to catch up. However, real life happens and schedules do not align. I don't have the time to wait around to get a bunch of folks together to do content. Mercenaries only get you so far and I also enjoy knocking out content I never experienced back when I played years ago.

So, I rolled an SK instead of a paladin as my primary tank, started over from level 1 with a 6 box-team and had a blast playing through the game the RG way.

I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to all of the RG Devs who made this possible, you really have brought immense value to the Everquest community, despite what others say. I'm also thankful that Daybreak has kept an aging fossil of a game alive with a shoestring budget. I just hope there can be a compromise in the middle to allow boxing in certain places.

For now, I have paused my accounts so that is at least $90/month they are no longer receiving.

I have been playing around on Project Lazerus and having fun thus far. Would love to see more support for the Emu builds of very vanilla and the CTWN plugins.

But most of all, just wanted to stay THANK YOU!

 

[Sum1]

You misunderstand. This isn’t a preventative or detective mechanism, it is trying to protect you from yourself.

Telling the community is announcing it~

Rather than full on fanfare with banners across the site and ads about how our MQ is safe, simply say “we’ve incorporated what we think are adequate protections.” and leave it at that.

Communicating a status isn’t the same thing as a huge overt announcement (in my mind).

Also, make the communication once and then don’t keep hammering it home.

 

[ASmith50]

RG EMU server sounds like it would be pretty amazing and fun, no more hiding who you are and openly helping everyone out in general chat (if that feature is in EMU servers lol)

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

Facing facts; if Daybreak is maintaining good operational security and secrecy, we may never know the details of their detection. And if the Daybreak employee with the hard on for "cheaters" is a more senior person, they may never back off from their random enforcement actions. Meanwhile, I've got characters I don't want to lose so I have to quit cheating with MQ (at least for those characters!)

Or I continue cheating, but with a new "undetectable" program. I would help fund a new program even if it didn't have all the current functionality of MQ. I already pay for ISBoxer and I'm willing to give up AFK gameplay, maps, and complex macros, if I can get the alts to behave with somewhat more automation than ISBoxer can provide.

My thinking is that if we only grab game variables that are available through UI programming, then game memory injection might not be needed. And if we're reading UI elements exactly like a human would, then it's going to be very difficult for them to prove we are automating or cheating. And if our game actions are limited to what is available through keyboard emulation then once again that is nearly undetectable. (Look at a keyboard program like Keytext for example, it's dumb but just emulates a person pressing keys.)

The result would be a much poorer experience than MQ currently provides but perhaps enough automation to get by?

 

[Ionis]

I don't think we should respond at all.

While it may be convenient to throw caution to the wind and all-in a 100 % unmoderated compile that works anywhere and everywhere, provocation of this measure would only make matters worse. Throughout the development of IonBC, I was in constant communication with Redbot about keeping consistent with RedGuides' mentality and Daybreak's ruleset. Breaking these guidelines would almost certainly bring greater consequences for the community as a whole. Jen's stance on third party software is crystal clear, if you're still going in to this thinking that we should respond with all out war you need to take a step back and think about what that really means for the community as a whole. There's more at stake here than just your team that got hit with a 7-day suspension, decades worth of work went in to creating this platform we all use, to throw caution to the wind and provoke Daybreak in to taking more drastic action just out of spite is without a doubt the wrong choice.

If anything, I am of the opinion that non-injectable, independent software used on TrueBox servers, as well as it's discussion, should be more widely accepted. The guidelines for discussing and creating software related to TrueBox servers should be altered to fully allow the development of this software. Keep it well moderated, have it either open source or require administrative source access. Assuming we keep software in the happy, non-injectable space that Daybreak is content with, I don't believe this would be seen as provocation and could give a non-provocative solution to those wanting to use applications for ease of boxing on TrueBox servers.

That's my two cents anyways, I firmly oppose declaring all out war against Daybreak and always will regardless.

 

[dlaevid2]

I'm personally of the opinion that if you get caught using MQ2 and you get suspended then you should just go with it. It's all cheating, whether you're sitting at you computer watching your character do something automatically or you're afk letting it do its thing. Take your lumps and keep your mouth shut.

I have no issues with suspensions. None. They suck yes.. but that is the punishment. I have been known to do rolling stops at stop signs which is illegal and occasionally get busted. I thank the officer, pay my fine, and go back to life.

I do have major issue with Perma Bans unless you are actively hacking (think plat duping), harassing other people, or camping a named spot 24/7 for days on end. Other than that Perma Bans are bullshit. Even most severe felonies in real life get parole and this is hardly that. To lose hundreds if not thousands of real life hours on a virtual game is excessive. They want to give me a 14 day break every month.. get on with it. Make my family happy. Or I will pay double to leave me the fck alone. I am good with either way. If they just took Perma Bans off the table then lets roll and quit worrying about it .....

 

[orbitz]

I couldn't agree more. I cancelled 18 gold accounts and moved to test for the time being. Enough of that happens and it might move the needle in the right direction. On a positive note, I have only had 3 of 48 accounts on test suspended so far

 

[that1guy]

Thank you to the RG leaders, developers, and community. I would not have stayed with this game if I didn't have MQ to play.

I don't personally think that DPG really has anything against MQ users (we generate money for them as well, maybe more than the average player with the amount of accounts subbed)..... but really it comes down to the other players that are complaining. DPG is behind what other games are and how they play. The individual players honestly need better resources from DPG in order to play the game effectively. Mercs making molo possible was a good start but it stopped there. That was implemented years ago! I have not seen any additional resources put to the every day player. MQ has! I don't know the stats but most of the people I know have played EQ in the early 2000's and come back. We are all older and still support this game. I've seen in the forums how they can't box as well since we are older, or have developed a type of disability, etc.) I work two jobs personally and I don't have the time to waste hours LFG and hundreds of hours to grind exp and AA at a slow pace of molo'ing or maybe with one or two others. I want to play all the classes, I want to get all the AA's, but its too much to do each toon individually or box only 2-3, let alone all 6 effectively. There isn't enough grouping, so I created my own with the help of MQ. (I also am off at odd hours and days...but thats me). I feel DPG needs to step up on their side by implementing things from MQ to EQ to continue going on for years to come.

I've started having suspensions in the last couple of months. In that time I have found other things to do and other games to play. I still come back to EQ. I will as long as MQ is around. EQ has that older feel (which is a thing I love and hate at the same time). I've played enough modern games to really see the difference.

It really sucks that there are people strongly against MQ. I hear it in general. Some of the times its MQ abusing camps and permacamping. (I am not for camping names yet I do have my fav camp spots that don't include quest mobs/named. People who abuse quest/names should be checked on but imo not the ones that are camping non-quest/non-named mobs just to help grind the ridiculous amount of exp). Some of it is because people get jealous because they secretly wish they were able to have it easier so in jealousy they attack or report so everyone is at their level. Instead the non-mq players should be brought up to a better level.

Someone had said that DPG is acting more like a parent to children fighting. I can agree and DPG is following what any game EULA tends to be. Its something to protect their assessts. I just feel that DPG should maybe skip out on an expansion for a year and work on getting the game better and bring it up to current style of gaming. It could bring more people to the game because lets face it, EQ IS A LOT to handle. I've seen people start and then just never see them again. The people who have stuck it out still vent their frustrations in general and then direct their frustrations at others. If DPG is going to 'be the parent' fix the problem instead of putting band-aids (suspensions) to appease the masses.

What does this mean for RG and our community? I strongly suggest both sides are open and frank with each other. Listen and learn from each other. RG has some very talented coders and script writers. Its all open sourced now so listen and learn, then make better. What is the most commonly reported about MQ users? Tell us so we can avoid whatever it is. Is it something that DPG maybe has to implement? I realize that there are people who won't follow but don't let a few bad apples ruin the rest of us. Just give them warnings and after a few warnings, suspensions, then ban. People (RG and DPG) should have the decency to allow change in their patterns or guided back to the path by telling what was wrong (not only "you're cheating" line we get in all the suspensions). Let both sides work together to support a game we all love and enjoy!

 

[Knightly]

So going off of what you just said, your opinion is that restricting on truebox is warranted because classic up until luclin its very easy to group with others and do content even at a solo level, and then starting around PoP and into GoD is when the "wave" crashes and u can start to understand the use of MQ?
So with that said, there is currently zero TLP's which meet that criteria.
Would it not make sense to relax our truebox limitations when a server reaches GoD? OOW? At what point would you feel its entered the era where you could accept its use? I don't see it being very difficult to update the approved server list for a server once it reaches a certain checkpoint instead of just going based off of whether it is truebox or not?

Apologies if this came off as hostile, not my intentions, just curious.

I didn’t take it as hostile, so no worries there.

Don’t get me wrong, I see the reasons people would want to use MQ in any era. I was mostly just saying that the RG community’s reasons for using MQ based on the general sentiment of why RG users use MQ is mostly not really needed on a TLP. That was in opposition to the stance that people supporting no use of MQ on Truebox servers aren’t coming from a position of having played on Truebox.

But that’s only my feeling that you don’t really need it.

I don’t support it because it’s blatantly at odds with what Truebox is designed to be. Granted Truebox is not a “no box” server but it is very biased against boxing. I’ve stated that opinion elsewhere so I won’t rehash it here, but it boils down to: DPG specifically wants you to not box on these servers. Going against that by adding methods to box is not really acting in good faith with where I want MQ (in general) to be. Now, that’s only my personal opinion. I recognize and respect that opinions run the gamut.

Addressing the other questions of “When should it be introduced” — DPG made an interesting decision on these newer servers in recognizing the value of boxing at certain eras and lightening/lifting their own restrictions. Regardless of where I see the needs for it, they’ve drawn a line in the sand and I can respect that line.

I think some people choose to view this as cowardly and that’s okay. Given MQ’s origins and how far we’ve come we can have different views. I see it as a chance to show where I’m willing to compromise and, if nothing else, that I’m willing to reduce provocation regardless of what other actors do. I like to be in a place where I’m always acting in good faith.

 

[lanceval]

I agree to the comments pointing that eventually it is all about money and profits.
The impact on revenue could take about a year to really appear in full.
It is not realistic to expect any change from DPG in the short term.
At this point if no one started a meaningful communication with DPG, then may be it is better to stop trying and look for other alternative like EMU.
I think it would be nice to have a rg emu server and
depending on its popularity to reassess.

 

[Coldblooded]

I think there are at least a couple of ways you can read into the question posed at the start of this mega thread. One, which many did was to look at the "we" in "how should we respond to suspension waves" and think "me". How can I personally respond, or how can you personally respond. My thought moves in a direction of Redguides. Sort of like what if I helped to deliver a product that nobody wanted anymore, or that wasn't cool anymore, or in our case, the use of the product is becoming a liability so great that users are walking away. Of course, this is speculation - only Red and other insiders know the true numbers, just like all the speculation about DBG is just that as well.

My idea stems a bit from numbers I DO know. The other day I was adding the official Everquest Discord server and stumbled upon this:



Of course, RedGuides is first - it's the best! But I noticed that Project 1999 has MORE members than the official Everquest Server. No this does not, of course, mean there are more people playing Project 1999 than Everquest - but it does show they for sure aren't dead. And there are at least 3998 users that just might like to use MQ and the tooling that Red provides.

Just to check things out I went to Project Lazarus yesterday and downloaded the old client, set up things, etc - and I can tell you from that experience, that the EMU community needs some attention from Redguides. I know there's an EMU version of MQ2 - and I know MQ is working on a new version of MQ for EMU, but beyond that, there is a LOT of work that could be captured and monetized and grown, which would help the community overall.

So one thing I think "we" could do as a community in light of the suspension bans is to show a bit of love to a community, that in some cases not only tolerates, but welcomes MQ with open arms, and it appears we treat them like red-haired stepchildren.

 

[deathlock]

I think it's been 6 months since i've played eq unsubbed my 7 accounts and just concentrating on survival during this pandemic. I was suspended for 7 days and that was the nail in the coffin so it was a month or 2 later i unsubbed. I am happy playing virtual reality games and doing other things that are less costly than eq. I might be back if they ever decide to stop banning or suspending people for 3rd party software. peace out.

I did the same thing. Unsubbed 7 accts. Maybe when things are back to the "Status Quo". I will come back. Honestly, I found other things to spend my money on and I am enjoying them immensely.

 

[deified]

My response to the 7 day vacation was to cancel 7 subs.

This is a hypothetical if a dev was willing to talk:
So what if, you get caught "cheating" you get your account suspended for the 7 days. But, after that your account is now cheater status, you can no longer raid current content. You cant trade until your 14 - 30 days cheater status is up, no bazaar, no trading, etc. Put all the cheaters into some kind of punishment mode that still allows you to play with friends etc (minus raid) or do your own thing that you usually do. You have quite a few limitations on your account and if you are willing to keep "cheating" you can stay in that status if you dont mind all the limitations. This all coming with your account not being banned. Just my two cents.

 

[Snowball]

My fellow addicts! (I mean that humorously)

I have been reading this thread and the Fippy one daily, and I appreciate everyone's discussion and ventilation. Though dispassionate most of the time, I still get angry about these sporadic enforcement waves. I spent an hour reading the official EverQuest forums to see some of those player opinions as well. Inspired by this community, I am going to modify my course of action. Currently, I have 1 banned account (it still shows up on the guild roster), 12 gold accounts (some previously suspended, so they are flagged by DBG {Daybreak Games} now), and 1 "pure" centimillionaire account (runs on an old Dell with integrated graphics and no SSD {solid state drive}). Being self-aware, I will not quit EQ only to come back some later with severe withdrawal and pathetic excuses. However, after reading posts from fellow businessmen (indeed, ROI {return on investment} is everything), cutting subscriptions is clearly the only way to demonstrate to the managers (decision-makers) at DBG that their reasoning is incorrect. There are no new customers for the EverQuest service, so harassing existing customers makes no business sense. Their concept of "justice" is oversimplified. This is evident from the number of dissatisfied voices here who have 20+ years with this game.

(1) My initial plan was to simply continue my gaming, business as usual, getting the crew(s) to level 120 and maximum AA points.

(2) I disagree with the DBG management's selective enforcement reasoning and subsequently their conclusions. EverQuest Live is a defective multi-player service that has received new life (and certainly subscriptions) from third-party software. (Player A: "85 toon LFG!" Self-righteous Player B: "Go make friends! EQ is a MMO {massively multi-player online game} you know!") (After 2 hours, Player A logs off to watch Netflix.)

(3) TLP works for a population of players because it places (and locks) them into portions of the game that have proven playable quality. Development costs are minimal, because the content was created years ago. Like popular music from the past, players love to relive those experiences, and that wonderful "ding". The "holy trinity" of "tank, healer, slower" is not always necessary to survive, and "twinking" (more powerful characters empowering weaker characters) is relatively easy. However, this is not sustainable as the players advance in levels. At higher levels, the game requires more work on each character (50K+ AA points, 21 gear slots, type 4/5/7/8/18/22 augmentations, etc.), but also requires more PLAYERS (not including the raid-geared players who post solo videos on YouTube). The mercenary-for-hire NPCs {non-player characters} were an attempt to overcome this shortage of available players, but designed obsolescence decreased their effectiveness at higher levels. (Please forgive the nostalgia. I was in Las Vegas in August 2008, watching the "Seeds of Destruction" presentation at Fan Faire.) Designed obsolescence plagues much of the Live game's design. A returning Live player who purchases two or three heroic character boosts (at 3500 DBC each) and uses mercenaries to fill their group will likely become frustrated (as I was).

(4) Using modern programming technology, third-party software fills the void with magnificent superhero-level abilities. A single player with six gold accounts is able to successfully complete all group-level content through level 120. Of course, such advantages can tempt players to take some bold liberties, as we all know.

On the official forums, it is hard to recognize if the players are exaggerating or attempting to accurately describe the advantages of third-party software. From "The Veteran's Lounge":

"... play while they're sleeping, doing BBQs, spending time with their family, etc. Who cares if grinding levels takes 60 hours of killing mobs when not at the keyboard putting in the work. No batting an eyelash if there is a need of 8 silks to make a bracer container, and silks drop once every 20 mobs, because botters are killing about 800 of them while downstairs watching cartoons."

As a player in the higher levels, the advantage gap is like an enormous chasm. On one side, the progressing is painful or impossible. Mercenaries are underpowered. On the other side, leveraging the power of magnificent programming, countless doors swing wide open.
DBG management decided to harass all players that use third-party software by selectively enforcing their terms of service. The intended effect was to get a positive effect (ROI???) by targeting players using third-party software in a mass harassment campaign, including the termination of accounts.

This reminds me of an episode of X-Men The Animated Series. Military scientist Bolivar Trask built huge robot Sentinels to control mutants. When the programmed logic of the robots leads them to control all humans. Bolivar exclaims, "You were programmed to hunt and control mutants, not humans!" One quite logical robot responds, "Mutants ARE human. Thus, humans need to be controlled." Garbage in, garbage out. DBG seems to have overlooked that paying customers are among the players who use third-party software, as well as the value of such software in fixing deficiencies in EverQuest design. Where are the slower-role mercenaries? Are they ever going to strengthen the tank mercenary, making it useful?

Following their "logic", the DBG managers set their enforcement dogs loose with hunter-seeker algorithms. Were they targeting only AFK {away from keyboard} automated characters who hogged spawn camps? Were they targeting platinum farmers? Were they targeting anyone that got a /petition from a whiner? Were they targeting raiders who would get an unfair advantage in the Elite Gamers Lounge competition? Their huge net engulfed a lot of players. Whatever their criteria was, only feedback will determine the value of this action plan.

(5) To support the boycott, I will stop subscriptions on 5 gold accounts (5 X $12 per month) and forego expansions (TOL Collector's version was $69.99 since I like collecting mounts, so not buying 5 of those) going forward. Yes, maximum effect would be stopping them all and never buying another expansion. Unfortunately, I lack that level of willpower, so 6 accounts will continue to feed my addiction.

(6) My intention is that this boycott will convince some decision-maker at DBG to reconsider the "positive effect" of this kind of harassment, reducing these waves in the future. If they wish to see what losing subscription revenue looks like, we should deliver in spades. I wish I could go all-in, but I would be crawling back in a few weeks.

 

[Giggles]

Well im at work and was looking at my email and looks like they are starting to ban not just suspend. Been a good run folks, without RG i would have never returned. i had more fun than i ever did playing this game. I dont know which act it is but they are all 20+ years old. my question is can i get some money back? Because i did 6 yearly subscriptions and im going to go ahead and cancel it all.

Thanks all for the fun and gluck!!!