Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (2 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[krawdad]

I preemptively canceled all 6 of my active accounts. No suspension yet, but I'm sure it's only time.
This was the only thing I can think of as a response (in a way).
I have quite a few projects to work on outside of EQ.
Maybe if we get enough people to temporarily cancel / stop playing, it will do something? Not sure if our numbers are enough, or if they are it would put EQ on the choppin' block.
I kinda feel like we done this to ourselves though. Made it super easy to fire up an afk crew and let it rip for weeks and lock down whole camps / parts of zones.
This puts me in mind of when I first saw MQ2Gmail years ago. I thought it was insane that people would leave things running by itself.

 

[shearhack]

I read alot of people cancelling subscriptions which is probably a great start wish there was a way to maybe get a hit counter on how many people are doing that. this forum to me kinda like how reddit controlled GME stocks simply by putting in together as a lot then fluctuating the market to their advantage *cough* made alot of money on that one lol our only advantage being to cancels subscripts and maybe not buy new expans and holding fast as a team. lots of great minds in here though i think we might think of something keep at it guys! also i really appreciate mq as it breathed new life into the game for me i was on the verge of quitting and have always used it to help people get items or into my group swapping people and boxes in and out. ive never used it at all to grief anyone and now that they have burned my hand i will be unsubscribing as well till i hear more news.

TLDR Band together by unsubscribing and not buying expans as a community much like they did on reddit with GME stocks lol
cheers!

 

[Ziandra]

Most people are talking about Rizlona as if it's the only boxing friendly TLP, but Ragefire--which requires subs or krono to play on--has been plugging along since May 2015, and that was without AOC for a very long time. We are currently in ROF and I, personally, am loving it, as I never went beyond GOD back in the day. We have around 3-4 raiding guilds and we generally get along well server-wide with each other. We don't do the grief play that always happens on every single new TLP at all.

So what I would like is:

1. Better detection protection
2. Leave Live, Ragefire, and Rizlona as the servers that are approved to use RG VV+CWTN plugins/Lua

I started using RG around OOW, and frankly the nav, melee, autologin, and maps were such QOL additions that I'm finding it very difficult to not play with VV now that I have had three of my seven account with their first suspensions. This year, I added CTWN class plugins and I love them. As it is, I'm only logging in as my main to raid, which is HELL since I can't see the mobs that the RL is talking about in voice chat, and I don't have NAV which was such a QOL for me.

For what it's worth, I have 7 accounts: four are lifetime, the rest are yearly subs. Two of my lifetimes I've been playing since 1999. The third since Ragefire launch in 2015. The rest came just a year or so later than that. In April 2022, three of my seven were suspended, and none of them (NONE) had been outside the guild hall for quite a while because I was busy IRL and only had time to raid with my main, and the only thing I did on them was overseer macro. One of the three that was suspended I had JUST upgraded to yearly sub from every three months sub the month before.

Anyway, make it harder for DP to detect RG VV is my number 1 request.

 

[MadaSnave]

honestly im not the most knowledgeable person to join this discussion. but from what i see there is only a few things that redguides and the community behind it can do to try to solve the issues.

1 be responsible when boxing and using any macro's or other helpful things that might not be looked upon fondly by the company. what do i mean, well 99% of the people here all ready do this. we give up camps when some one comes up even if we just got there 1 pull before and took 40 min to get out group there. we help the other players even when we get nothing out of it by spamming buffs on those we see leveling as we travel. I've soloed on fv enough to be the benefactor of this and have replicated it. - but this we all ready do, wont change much but doubling down on your strengths is always a good idea when dealing with these situations.

2 take a look at the macro's and other aids on the site that might be overly flashy. hate to say it but when you got 6+ characters in the tutorial zone all running mob to mob and killing the mobs and your just trying to get one toon through and they come up and ks you because they are on auto mode to farm or run a macro that automates the kill quest that doesn't promote good will. if the zone is dead you likely would never been seen, but when there's 15+ people in the zone and more then a few are active your just hurting the others on this forum.

3 try to keep an open line of communication with the developers of eq and hope that they can see that honestly korno's likely wouldn't sell with out mq2 and redguides. and from what i can see of korno's for sale on ectc they have to make up a real portion of their revenue. i mean who else but boxers could even need the max 25 at once that is the limit to buy for a measly 1$ off per. not to mention the boxers that buy every expansion that comes out, and lol actually sub to the game.

4 we could always just all quit for one month and give that sub/korno money to red and let them buy stock in the company and try to open their eyes? i mean it couldn't hurt.

5 one last one, the subject of eqemu has come up, I've made my own server when i quit eq the last time. and honestly while a lot of the game isn't there to the point that i want it to be. some zones need some serous scripting. there is the option of forming a group here who work not just to make mq2 able to run on the emu better, but to start a server that actually pushes to the full extent of the data that is there. i mean even with level 90 if i remember right being on the server, there are no spells or pets past 70. if dpg don't want your blood sweat or cash, why not make it where you don't need them and can still enjoy the game that you do like?

that's about all i can come up with been thinking about this since i came back a few weeks ago and honestly i just hope redguides will be here working to make the game playable that i have 21 years of memories of (yeah i started in 2001 not 1999).

 

[MadaSnave]

im not saying that eq should keep stealing from eqemu, im saying that there are some talented coders on this very site that if they pulled their resources together could have a better eq server then much of what we experience on eq. Quality of life features for sure.

 

[Redbot]

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

Many of us are already boycotting EQ. It wouldn't take much more to just ask the entire MQ community to avoid logging in on May 31st and June 1st. Also, camp all bazaar and/or guild hall mules. Still raid on your main character if raids are scheduled.

If they keep monthly statistics, then those two days will affect two month's worth of data.

Gather and log General channel usage the week before, then during the boycott, then the week after.

 

[naamloseeen]

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the jail server term, I've been away from EQ for a while. I'm thinking paid transfers to, no transfers off (I assume that's where the jail term comes from?), possibly even subs required for each account so DBG gains more than is lost.

I'm not aware of what drama their would be... maybe I make the mistake of making presumptions based on my own experiences... I guess I've always viewed MQ2 users to be more the loner type than those seeking drama.

Not everyone is convinced that this would end up being a "jail server."

The closest approximation that we have is Rizlona. Especially in its early days, Rizlona was a great server to use MQ. People were generally friendly with each other, and almost everyone was using some type of automation. I remember needing a piece for my SK's Greenmist, and this dude running a full raid force let me follow along and loot until I got the piece. Of course, there were bad actors, but I never experienced any of them, and neither did any of the friends I played with. It was mostly just friendly people that wanted to play multiple toons.

The caveat is that it's not like everyone using MQ played on Rizlona when it launched. Some true jerks weren't there, but they might be if we had this dedicated server.

I don't have as much skin in this game as most people here. I don't play EQ all the time, and I regularly take weeks/months off to do other things. So I'm more inclined to follow along with whatever the rest of the community wants, but my personal preference would be a dedicated MQ server. I'd be okay with it being a paid server as long as it's still treated like a regular server as far as support goes.

 

[Knightly]

In my opinion, if you want to stage a walk out, you need it to be noticeable. I would guess that on a day to day and possibly even week to week basis, populations of logging in fluctuate enough that you’re not going to show up on the radar for not logging in for two days. Also, as someone pointed out, not logging in just reduces server load, it doesn’t change any financial situation.

So if you want to stage a walk out and be visible the way to do it is:
1.) Notify DPG what is happening and when. This points them in the direction so they know what to look at.
2.) Cancel all of your subscriptions at the same time on the same day.
3.) Stay canceled for one to two months.

Timing-wise, it matters when you do it. Doing it at the start of the new TLP for example is probably a bad idea, given that there is an influx of revenue when a new TLP starts. So your walk out is a blip, but the reasoning of the revenue data might suggest that it just wasn’t as popular a TLP ruleset.

Of course, doing it that way is also giving them a list of accounts that use MQ. So it’s a bit of a double edged sword.

Also, people who are F2P are only revenue when they buy items from the store, in the sense of showing up for something like this.

 

[Knightly]

Maybe it's just enthusiasm for the way the world/game was, but it's bad to reply to posts in that way, especially in a thread like this with it's terrible popularity contest aspect. And especially when I was busy trying to make several unpopular points nobody wants to hear, and he comes at me with this EQ nostalgia story. This is supposed to be a thread about real shit and honest opinions, something everyone seems to hate even though they need it. It's easier to just not post.

Yeah, I still don't follow. But that's okay. It seemed like you posted about how EQ was lightning in a bottle that was later tortured into bland electricity. Jetanroth said maybe that lightning was a product of the time and it would be hard to recreate. The reaction seems sanctimonious to me in any case. People are allowed to have different opinions though and I can respect both of your positions. Either way, I don't think it was meant as a popularity contest post.

 

[godsfshrmn]

I canceled my 7 accounts 1.5 months ago. The reason was the suspension of one account.
I don't put any more money into a game that can only be played solo on TLP servers. I preferred playing on Live, but that is rather tedious and less fun without MQ2.

The time from 2000 to 2022 was a great time, but living under the sword of Damocles and having to worry that my ancient accounts will be banned I find unacceptable.

The current operators of Everquest have tightened the reins properly and as long as it remains so, I'm just a spectator.

At this point I would like to thank you for the many cool programs and tools that have supported the last few years in the game very pleasant.

see you again

ditto to speathdell -- I have been MIA from my long time raiding guild since the second ban wave happened. I am very sad and miss a lot of folks both in my guild and here. Checking back today, it looks like these ban waves are still occurring and unfortunately I'm not coming back. I had 12 current-expansion accounts and paid for every one of those yearly since 2015 when I restarted - I'm afraid to add up the monetary value of that but it doesn't matter - I really enjoyed my time invested. Being on "thin ice" now just completely sucked the joy from the game. I prefer to vote with my wallet in this instance but sadly that means leaving a big base of online friends.

 

[blueadept]

I have 3 gold for life but now have 2 strikes on all of them. I have stopped using them and only have been playing with FTP or Silver since. I also got popped on the one account I kronoed to get it from FTP to Silver. I had created it long ago when they gave away Heroics. I had a spot to fill in my group so I subbed the FTP enchanter and put him in the all 85 group. Played for 3 days during double xp days and out of the whole group, that one got popped.

Since then, I haven't played any of my accounts. I was really looking forward to doing some anniversary stuff (now over), but I really don't feel like leveling up another set of toons.

I think I am done with EQ for a while.

 

[Micker99]

Just quit the game for awhile. You won't even miss it after a couple weeks. I usually sub, get excited for the expansion, play for a month and realize it's the same treadmill lol. I got excited to come back and use MQ, but then the suspensions and all that crap. I never miss it when I quit, just get curious to what is going on after several months. These games just take themselves too seriously, with all these nerfs etc..

 

[nilpez]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

I'd through my vote in for boycott. They only thing they will listen to is money. Now the plan would be when this year's expansion is release. No MQ user buys the new expansion for 3 months after it's release. This will give DarkPaw to analyze the 20-30% decline in DLC purchases for this year. Let Jennifer Chan get the heat for such a disastrous release. Make her step aside or realize the direction they took to crack down on automation software was a huge mistake. Let them back peddle into relaxing the suspension waves. Of course this would never be communicated directly but there will be subtle hints from them that they have relaxed. Then we thank them by all buying the expansion and returning to the game we love. I've already stop subbing on 8 of my box accounts. My main is Lifetime member so no more money is coming from me until they do this. And this is the only way I can think that they would listen.

 

[Redbot]

Simple:-

Open MQ to TLP.

Our compile works on Rizlona just fine

 

[Diebold666]

Just want to /bca //say ready and not have it instantly obvious that I'm botting.​

Don't Make Me Say It may be what you need.

 

[naamloseeen]

2) As much as I hate to say this, I feel part of the issue may have come from what might be lower barriers to entry that RG has created over the years, via guides and videos created by good people and for good reasons. In short, MQ might have become too easy to get set up and use, and has become too visible in recent years, attracting what DPG might consider an unacceptable percentage of use and something current leadership could no longer turn a blind eye to. This is a hard one for me, because the core of this community is about helping and sharing with others, as well as creating plugins and macros that make things easier not harder, but that might come with an unforeseen cost that we may be seeing now. For me, this means no more guides, explanations and example videos on places like YouTube, with the goal of less visibility rather than more. Sic will probably strongly disagree with this point of view, but it's just the way I see it. I think MQ has no choice but to operate from the shadows as much as possible.

I disagree with this. Having guides and videos doesn't attract new players. I think the vast majority of people decide to use MQ before they realize that there are guides on YouTube, etc. If you follow the forums you know that a lot of new users don't even know about the guides and videos.

I agree that RG makes it easier to get up and running with MQ. I also submit that some percentage of users use RG but would not use MQ/MQ64 due to complexity. But I don't think the fact that there are YouTube videos has anything to do with more people deciding to use MQ.

Taking down the guides and videos would really just lead to more of the same questions and frustration from new users. It wouldn't decrease the number of people wanting to use MQ.

If more people are using MQ (which is debatable, I certainly have no data on this, only DPG would know), it's because the EQ population continues to shrink and more people are realizing that it's box or die.

 

[an_image]

It depends on from what perspective you consider “threat” but I would mostly say no in any regard.

@Knightly agree and disagree with you there. We pose a threat in the sense that these tools allows players to do more with less (subbed time)...as an example me being able to run 54+ characters (and counting...i'm still building lol) solo threatens their model in a lot of way. On the other hand...I would say some of us in the community were (prior to all this foolishness) a hell of a lot more profitable, engaged, and beneficial to servers (Pwlvl's, Lag Pile MGB's/buffs, loot to guildies, etc...) than a regular joe player sitting in their living room soloing stuff or joining to run a raid ever was.

Prior MQ/VV (manual boxing) or post...I was contributing way more than I was ever taking both financial (12+ subs/exp purchases per year). Now, I'm on the boat of just helping our community and logging in to have fun. I've no plan to purchase anything or help anyone w/ anything on my servers until DBG mends their ways again and give me a reason to spend

Till that happens, get ready for bazaar shit to be super expensive (spells, gear, etc)...and for a buffless and no assist gaming experience for everyone else...just like DBG there's a cost to cover. They're just shooting themselves in the foot and creating a bad player experience for everyone

 

[Restina]

It's not a stretch considering Redguides / Macroquest doesn't support truebox that the plugins that are exclusive to redguides also wouldn't support truebox. If the stance changes in the future then changes would be made to accomodates said changes for the allowance. Though I'm not the one you'd need to discuss it with as I'm just playing follow the leader. Though I do think it's a bad idea to poke the proverbial bear.

Yeah I felt that was a personal decision since you can compile for any server and you had to go “out of your way” to code a block in for your plugins. Where RG made the decision to just not include by default yours was to actively block. That’s why I felt that if the MQ portion decided to remove that restriction from the compile you would have a different opinion. Just to make sure I’m not saying that’s a bad stance. I think a lot of people here haven’t dealt with truebox or self compiles which is why I added that info into my post.

 

[Kuridd]

My opinion is to work with DPG as much as possible and get some accommodations or work within some kind of framework that they are comfortable with but also work on improving security and reducing detections if possible. If we need to raise funds for an outside security audit so be it, though not sure what benefit that would be with an open-source project.

 

[Sofabutt]

I'm personally of the opinion that if you get caught using MQ2 and you get suspended then you should just go with it. It's all cheating, whether you're sitting at you computer watching your character do something automatically or you're afk letting it do its thing. Take your lumps and keep your mouth shut.

 

[an_image]

I couldn't agree with you more.

DPG makes the rules for EQ, it is their game, their RnD, thier money and that is their right to set any rules they want. Just like RG can set forum conduct rules here and delete peoples posts anytime they dont fit the rules. That is how shit works. If it works here on RG forums, what makes anyone think a $300,000,000 company doesn't get to make their own rules?

That being said, I will continue to gladly violate the EULA, break the rules, risk suspension, risk banning, risk losing 20 years worth of work on multiple accounts in order to ENJOY THE GAME MY WAY with my box crew.

I will never stop using MQ, I will never stop risking suspension, I know the consequences of that choice and I accept it completely.

 

[Gohast]

I say work on detection avoidance and dropping the Truebox restriction.

I get why it was done initially but that has proven moot. Now it's like we're bums outside of the nice restaurant trying to prove to everyone inside that we're good by picking up trash. They don't care what we're doing. They just want us gone.

 

[Saetun]

There is no honor among thieves.

There absolutely should be atm however. Lets face it we are not good judges of what is "obvious". We know things and recognize behaviors that others might not find suspicious because we have knowledge of how things work. And especially right now all you are doing by reporting other MQ2 users is helping to provide more and better data points for DPG to improve their automated detection. Which will only hurt everyone including yourself. The days of building good will with DPG are gone. They aren't going to turn around and say, "well they are a bad user and you are a good one". The current management obviously is on a crusade and believes all are bad.

 

[Gohast]

Case 4: True Box Servers
These rules make sense, just like the banned substances list for the Olympic games. Some players do not want superhero-level characters in their game environment. I respect that.

I don't understand this line of thinking. We aren't allowed to use MQ at all. If you respected what other players want you wouldn't use it on any server. We've self imposed a rule in hopes that they would leave the larger community alone and for a time it worked. Everyone wants to play the game their own way. Its very obvious that everyone against MQ on Truebox has no interest in playing on them so its an easy opinion to have. Lets stop cherry picking which DPG rules we want to follow.

 

[Knightly]

It’s very obvious that everyone against MQ on Truebox has no interest in playing on them so its an easy opinion to have.

I’ve played on a few of the Truebox servers. I enjoy it occasionally (though I’m not one that would play one every year). I don’t really think you need MQ on Truebox and I played without it. Definitely not needed at the start and not needed until much later if you’re “riding the wave.”

1.) There are plenty of people and plenty of groups to be had at all hours of the day. Population isn’t an issue because it’s high and consolidated.
2.) There is not a lot you can’t do solo. Most old world quests and even the Kunark Archaeologist quests either have things you can do solo or drop in places where there are active groups. I can’t think of a scenario where you have to camp something in a dead zone, even if you do have to camp something.
3.) The time sinks are minimal. A lot of the old world stuff just relied on people not knowing what they were doing. Now that people do, it’s not nearly as much of a time sink and all the QoL things that were added (smoothing out levels, less exp loss from death, no corpse runs for gear) all reduce that original time sink.

This isn’t true of the modern game, and granted there are some original things like this as well in the TLP game but there are many more in the modern game. There are design decisions that would ask you to get a group of your five closest friends to camp something with you for a few days or spend hundreds of hours to “baseline” your AAs and gear so that you’re not trash or dead weight to any group you join.

I would say MQ probably starts to become useful for the casual gamer around Luclin when AAs enter the picture and the disparity between time commitments begins to show. It becomes pronounced in Planes of Power when flagging comes in, and it gets excessive in GoD when the population falls off and the “wave” has crashed.

 

[Jetanroth]

I'm not against an MQ server. On launch, that's what Rizlona was! People were helping one another with EQBC commands over /ooc and general chat, it was beautiful.

But as Sic pointed out, a "jail" server where we're lumped in with folks who warp and hack and harass one another with no customer support is worse than the random 7-day vacation.

For me, Im not so sure about this. My guild is just me and my family, I dont interact with anyone else in the game unless I am somehow forced to. If someone sends me a tell, I answer but I never group with anyone other than myself and my guild, and I dont pay attention to what anyone is saying in /general unless someone is selling an item I want to buy or something like that.

I dont think I would even notice the difference between a "jail" server and my current server tbh. But, I can't say for sure since I have never played on a jail server. Who has?

 

[Motojeff]

I agree with the posts here about financial reasons being the best leverage. Why don't we try and get a rough estimate of how many paid subs players here have and get a guesstimate dollar figure, this would put to rest or confirm a lot of speculation. you could easily figure that each paid redguides sub likely has at least a couple subs + recent expansion purchases or do a poll. might be a good idea to considered actual paid vs krono subs as well, as most krono transactions are 3rd party.

I have 7 actual paid and 7 others that are krono subbed. I would not play if I did not have redguides for a lot of the same reasons everyone mentions above. So there's around 200$ a month + the 12 ToL expansions that I purchased another over $400 and then any DB cash I might have purchased recently not even considered. Not to be spiteful about the situation but they are a business not a charity at the end of the day its dollars that pay the bills. They certainly will not make the same dollars off the smiles of the happy 1 sub solo player that doesn't use mq, but the question is how substantial is that figure? I actually think that around 90% of the anti-mq player movement would switch in a heartbeat and use these same tools, and enjoy the game so much more than they are now. they are just are to dumb or lazy to use them for lack of better terms and their envy and jealousy becomes spite towards those of us that do use these tools. any how I contribute around $3K per year to DBG's revenue all things considered.

Now lets say we we cut that in half to 1.5K per year times lets say 2/3rds the RG paid subs. that should give you a rough estimate of the financial impact and then put to rest speculation, or arm us with financial leverage.

 

[Gohast]

I didn’t take it as hostile, so no worries there.

Don’t get me wrong, I see the reasons people would want to use MQ in any era. I was mostly just saying that the RG community’s reasons for using MQ based on the general sentiment of why RG users use MQ is mostly not really needed on a TLP. That was in opposition to the stance that people supporting no use of MQ on Truebox servers aren’t coming from a position of having played on Truebox.

But that’s only my feeling that you don’t really need it.

I don’t support it because it’s blatantly at odds with what Truebox is designed to be. Granted Truebox is not a “no box” server but it is very biased against boxing. I’ve stated that opinion elsewhere so I won’t rehash it here, but it boils down to: DPG specifically wants you to not box on these servers. Going against that by adding methods to box is not really acting in good faith with where I want MQ (in general) to be. Now, that’s only my personal opinion. I recognize and respect that opinions run the gamut.

Addressing the other questions of “When should it be introduced” — DPG made an interesting decision on these newer servers in recognizing the value of boxing at certain eras and lightening/lifting their own restrictions. Regardless of where I see the needs for it, they’ve drawn a line in the sand and I can respect that line.

I think some people choose to view this as cowardly and that’s okay. Given MQ’s origins and how far we’ve come we can have different views. I see it as a chance to show where I’m willing to compromise and, if nothing else, that I’m willing to reduce provocation regardless of what other actors do. I like to be in a place where I’m always acting in good faith.

My only problem is that DPG isn't saying "Relaxed MQ boxing". They have drawn the line that MQ is against TOS and they are acting on it. I don't see that self imposed honor rules is going to make them ban us less. I get people don't want to poke the bear but it's irrelevant when the bear is already attacking you.

I feel like Mule and RG already acted in good faith when they disabled the use in their compile. I didn't like it but I could at least agree with it when they left us alone elsewhere. Now that my live accounts are being suspended/banned I think we can take the gloves off. Might this bring them down harder? Sure, but the sentiment I've gotten from this thread is that most people are cancelling their subs anyway.

I'm glad Red made this post but the decision should definitely be left to the MQ/RG devs who have built the community. I'm just angry and venting .

 

[madruk20]

this is absolutely without question not what we want. prison servers don't work. even Holly mentioned this when we were all discussing making Rizlona possible.

I'm not so sure. We had a dude 54 boxing and warping to OW raid targets on Rizlona with pretty much zero repercussions from classic to velious. The only reason he got caught in the end is because he got greedy and woke the Sleeper, and it caused a backlash. I've watched warping and hacks pretty much from the get go from others that are still playing to this day. Their actual policing of the server was pretty light to begin with even with the "dedicated" GM era. I think the only argument you can make against a no police server is it allows people to grief you in OW zones. I'd honestly trade that for being able to play without worrying if I'm going to get banned after putting years of work into my characters.

I dont think Drunder from EQ2 is a good example because the population of EQ2 is a fraction of EQ's (and they're both small to begin with) and the actual policing of things like Ogre was fairly light. You didn't really have a good reason to go there when there was a tiny chance you'd get caught, and even then you'd have to be afking 24/7. If they start heavily enforcing third party program usage on EQ I think a no police server will look alot more appealing to alot of people.

How many people here have rerolled their characters over the years because they got banned at some point? I'd wager it's a pretty significant amount.

 

[EQChick]

I have been pondering this situation while rubbing bengay on my wrists.

- I do not believe DB has mastered some new cheat detection. I believe they stumped upon certain "oddities" while looking to address the latency problem.
- I think DB sees MQ as a contributing factor to their latency problem.

I am wrong very often and these are just my thoughts. I would like to see some talks continue with DB like in the past (if that is even possible - probably isn't, but one can dream).

 

[Jetanroth]

Everyone else has proven for decades they have no clue how to replicate it.....

In my opinion that is simply because it CANNOT be replicated. I think that EQ was the perfect nexus of gamer mentality with gameplay that could have ONLY happened in the late 90's. I really dont think it can ever happen again.

Think about it, most of us grew up on DnD or other table top RPGs that were incredibly challenging. To get a DnD character to lev 18 literally took a miracle. We were mentally primed for shit to be HARD as fuck, to scrounge and work like a freak to make one tiny advancement in your character, to have an evil DM set traps for you spelling certain death at every turn.

When EQ came out this played right into our mindset! It was perfect! No fucking map at all! A sense heading skill that actually had to be leveled up and at low levels was worth FUCK ALl. Spells fizzling left and right just when you need them to save your life! Moving one zone out of your start zone by yourself was nearly a certain death sentence. Do you remember literally sitting at your computer drawing out maps of Befallen with a pencil and graph paper? Do you remember the agonizing corpse runs through Tox, losing ALL of your gear because you couldn't successfully CR before corpse faded? In today's terms, the shit was nuts. The Gamers of today don't have any time or inclination to mess with something savage like that. But for us, it literally HOOKED us on the game. The difficulty, the incremental success, the sense of genuine satisfaction when you hear the "Ding!". That shit, for us was CRACK for our kind of mindset and we ate it up with a spoon!

But, today, you don't have a sea of gamers primed for something like that. I suspect that it was a single moment in time where the universe aligned with the perfect Gamers tothe perfect Game to entice them like nothing ever had before. Now, we are all addicts so even though the game has grown faaar from those roots, we are still deeply invested. I play all kinds of games, FPS, RTS and RPG but EQ is still the ONLY MMORPG that I play, nothing has enticed me since EQ.

Who knows. Never say never. But, I think the EQ phenominon can't be duplicated.

 

[Sum1]

If it wasn't for MQ, i would of quit a long time ago. The fun in the game for me is the coding, Creating my own little simplified AI game robots, is a lot of fun. It has it challenges, but when it all works right it's worth it. DPG has gotten hundreds if not thousands off me over the years due to MQ. They would be absolutely stupid to kill this community. And to be honest all they should really care about is their bottom line. What gets them more money.

I sure do hope some of the key leaders make some sort of agreement, as losing MQ would put a big hole in my boring life. I would be forced to find some new game that's too easy, rewards the losers with gear, and i can turn my keyboard upside down and stand on it and win. Oh wait that WoW.. already beat that game.

But to answer the question of this thread, what should we do? Red have you attempted at just talking to them, seeing what their demands are, is there any wiggle room, is there some sort of accord that can be struck. Dialog is the first step, and if that's not been taken, you need to try and arrange a meeting with the powers that be, Here's a starting list. Sorry numbers not included.

• Jennifer Chan. Head of Studio at Darkpaw Games.
• Rick Randolph.
• Melissa Comeau. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.
• Robyn Vallee. Associate Game Designer at Darkpaw Games.

** Talking points could be:
- Plugins they hate.
- Concessions you can make for truebox and abiding to their wishes.
- Guaranteeing no active hacks or game breaking abilities / code will be offered.
- Maximum allowed toons to be boxed by 1 user. (this should be a no brainer, more accounts owned = more $$ they get).
- Protections you can implement in the code to ensure no unauthorised plugins are used.

Just a few brainstorming ideas.


And if all else fails, Start looking at how to set up a RG EMU server that's ran and controlled and subbed to by this community.

Keep in mind that MQ is open source. Red doesn’t speak for the entirety of the MQ community, so he can’t exactly speak for or negotiate for the entire community. He would need to be clear who he represents or the major compile sites need to come together and negotiate as a block.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

My idea stems a bit from numbers I DO know. The other day I was adding the official Everquest Discord server and stumbled upon this:

I found this interesting. Let's assume that the Redguides community is twice as likely to join Discord than the base Everquest population.

Under these assumptions the Redguides population would be [2837 / (10471 * 2)] or roughly 13.5% of the EQ population. That informs me that the Redquides population could seriously impact DBG's bottom line if enough of us cancel our subscriptions. It wouldn't just be a drop in the bucket to them.

Food for thought...

 

[Klunk]

just wondering all you folks that have canceled multiple accounts did you tell them why? otherwise they will just think people bored of playing

 

[Tangtown]

Not sure how the structure is over at EG7 but would it be worth making an appeal to their Chairman of the Board and/or CEO. I know there is no way to put a solid $ figure on the amount of revenue MQ generates for DPG, but RG would at least know how many subs they have and can make some educated guesses to put it in front of the people who are watching the money at EG7.

 

[surfdog21]

As much as I hate helping to beat this dead dog to death here, since there is pretty much the same post that was moved to Fippy's....

I think myself, Sic and the deep guys here, should arrange a hang out with the devs in Carlsbad California. Hang out, drink some drink and discuss MQ and hear all they have to say and let them really get in person what this is all about.. add ons, quality of life etc., available to all. It's a win win. A no brainer. https://www.pizzaport.com/ is a good place to have a round table meeting. It's a laid back place that alot of them I am sure have been to.

 

[an_image]

and I will take one for the team if jen's not married dammit!

be subtle @surfdog21 like this...

 

[skaffloctz]

Hmmm...i say we respond to these DMG Mofo's in Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs

Well we can't...but I bet you some bean counter in Finance is at some point going to get curious and say...what the fudge...then walk over to Accendo's desk and go...about this policy...

I don't think its Accendo, I think its JChan and Woebot, and yeah the bet they are making is that the crackdown will result in more revenue because once all us automators with our multiple gold accounts are gone and Norrath is pure again, a veritable conucopia of single account users will return and bring EQ back to its past glorys days where everyone can get a group and not have to LFG for hours on end. /em roles eyes....

 

[Overtimer]

Was going to resub for 1 year for my 6-toon team, this month.

What they got last night were 6 accounts that were removed from resubbing.