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Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (1 Viewer)

Redbot

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I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:
  • When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
  • While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
  • We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.


EDIT & SUMMARY


If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried 😅. Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!
 
Last edited:

godsfshrmn

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I canceled my 7 accounts 1.5 months ago. The reason was the suspension of one account.
I don't put any more money into a game that can only be played solo on TLP servers. I preferred playing on Live, but that is rather tedious and less fun without MQ2.

The time from 2000 to 2022 was a great time, but living under the sword of Damocles and having to worry that my ancient accounts will be banned I find unacceptable.

The current operators of Everquest have tightened the reins properly and as long as it remains so, I'm just a spectator.

At this point I would like to thank you for the many cool programs and tools that have supported the last few years in the game very pleasant.

see you again

ditto to speathdell -- I have been MIA from my long time raiding guild since the second ban wave happened. I am very sad and miss a lot of folks both in my guild and here. Checking back today, it looks like these ban waves are still occurring and unfortunately I'm not coming back. I had 12 current-expansion accounts and paid for every one of those yearly since 2015 when I restarted - I'm afraid to add up the monetary value of that but it doesn't matter - I really enjoyed my time invested. Being on "thin ice" now just completely sucked the joy from the game. I prefer to vote with my wallet in this instance but sadly that means leaving a big base of online friends.
 
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I have 3 gold for life but now have 2 strikes on all of them. I have stopped using them and only have been playing with FTP or Silver since. I also got popped on the one account I kronoed to get it from FTP to Silver. I had created it long ago when they gave away Heroics. I had a spot to fill in my group so I subbed the FTP enchanter and put him in the all 85 group. Played for 3 days during double xp days and out of the whole group, that one got popped.

Since then, I haven't played any of my accounts. I was really looking forward to doing some anniversary stuff (now over), but I really don't feel like leveling up another set of toons.

I think I am done with EQ for a while.
 

Micker99

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Just quit the game for awhile. You won't even miss it after a couple weeks. I usually sub, get excited for the expansion, play for a month and realize it's the same treadmill lol. I got excited to come back and use MQ, but then the suspensions and all that crap. I never miss it when I quit, just get curious to what is going on after several months. These games just take themselves too seriously, with all these nerfs etc..
 

gameross

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RedCents
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Just quit the game for awhile. You won't even miss it after a couple weeks. I usually sub, get excited for the expansion, play for a month and realize it's the same treadmill lol. I got excited to come back and use MQ, but then the suspensions and all that crap. I never miss it when I quit, just get curious to what is going on after several months. These games just take themselves too seriously, with all these nerfs etc..
I have to agree especially since the weather has warmed up. I'm going outside. Getting some walking/hiking and socializing with real people, etc. I've already gone down a belt notch(I was somewhat close before) because I'm not just sitting around playing EQ. I might even be less stressed not having to plan my schedule around making raids, etc!

Come winter, I'll probably play again, but I'm not going to play more than 4 without MQ, so good job shooting themselves in the foot and losing 8 additional subs *if* I start again; to say nothing of the subs they are currently losing until then.
 

Mishka

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I think some top guilds will fold during the summer.

Before when i logged in, there usually was 10-20 toons online in my guild. A main plus his/her alt doing somethings, lately I rarely see anyone online outside of raids. I also log within 5 mins, as there are noone online.

Is the death of MQ, the death of EQ?
 
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I think some top guilds will fold during the summer.

Before when i logged in, there usually was 10-20 toons online in my guild. A main plus his/her alt doing somethings, lately I rarely see anyone online outside of raids. I also log within 5 mins, as there are noone online.

Is the death of MQ, the death of EQ?
No. It's one of the seasons of EQ is all. Some years its hotter than others... Back in the day of serious raiding as a raid leader, it was always like this in the summer. I remember when Halo (the game) came out, it decimated some guilds during raid time.

Not trying to derail here but, I quit raiding years ago after burn out. LFG was dead and I discovered MQ and love love love it because of the lack of groups. IF for some reason MQ was no more, I would probably go back to an end game raiding guild as I don't need MQ to raid.
 
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Many people loose interest on EQ during summer.
We will see how that goes.
Suspension waves, better gaming options rolling out, hot girls in bikinis...no are good for eq gaming :)

Emily Ratajkowski Dancing GIF
bikini GIF
The Simpsons Bikini GIF
 

Redemption44

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On the last banning wave, one toon was banned, and 5 other toons, got a 14 day suspension as well. Hell, my 7th account got a 7 day suspension. I appealed, and I got the banned account back. I cancelled a majority of my accounts shortly after I got my accounts back.

Owning several businesses myself, losing a customer's revenue, for whatever reason, hurts, and it affects all areas of the business. The only way to get them back at the table is to let them see what effect this has on the game. In 2019, when I came back after a 14 yr hiatus, this game was dead on the live server that I was on. You could get any camp you wanted, and there were maybe a hundred or so folks in general chat at any one given time.

The service that this forum has provided has created a renaissance in EQ, and I believe it should be continued. However, I do not believe we should provoke or attack DBG. In my opinion, for whatever reason they choose, give them what they want. It's obvious they don't want MQ'ers playing their game. How do you get their attention? By hitting their pocket. Want to make a real statement? Then, unsub your accounts, and stop paying them.

How long will this take? As long as it takes the board members to see what has changed. No one invests their money into something that does not produce a ROI (return on investment). When the investors see this, who do you think will be the first to get axed? I would bet the person who came up with this great idea of knocking off this big chunk of revenue that Boxers, like us, are pouring into their 23 year old game.

We have seen over the past few years that new managers and owners of this game have come and gone, but it's the gamers, like us, that have stayed. I believe it is our time to rise, and to make our statement. With our pockets! Personally, I can tell you that I purchased 7 xpacs last December, and two were collectors or higher editions. Also, I paid 15 dollars X 7 accounts for over 3 yrs. Plus, those previous expansions for those same 7 toons as well. The folks that are complaining of boxing are purchasing one of each or are FTP toons. The amounts that I stated are not counting the money we have poured into our plugins here!

I don't believe we are taking into consideration the true effect we "cheaters" have on this game. You don't have to be violent or derogatory to get what you want in this capitalist society! Just speak with your pocket! You don't have to do a charge back to get your point across, all you have to do is unsub your account. Heck, we can even give it a date, and everyone on that same date. Unsub your account! Make your voice heard!

Otherwise, do nothing, and continue to come to this forum and complain on how you got shafted for cheating. It's what the DBG Dev's want to see when they read these forums with people continuing to pay them and doing nothing about it. Anyways, that's my two cents. For the dev's of this great forum, you have some of the brightest minds that I have come across. Although I have quit botting until something changes, I will try to support your efforts as much as I can. Thank you for the joy you brought back to this game.
Amen unsubbed myself and i told them why... I said i might be back if they change thier policies, regarding 3rd party software and unsubbed my 7 accounts i won't be back till' then having fun playing virtual reality.
 
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I have not been suspended on any of my 18 accounts yet, but I also play very sparingly and am also nice to players. Without RG I would not have come back to the game and played for any length of time. I am very well known in the game and when I logged back in on my character, people were shocked and initially went out of their way to group with me to catch up. However, real life happens and schedules do not align. I don't have the time to wait around to get a bunch of folks together to do content. Mercenaries only get you so far and I also enjoy knocking out content I never experienced back when I played years ago.

So, I rolled an SK instead of a paladin as my primary tank, started over from level 1 with a 6 box-team and had a blast playing through the game the RG way.

I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to all of the RG Devs who made this possible, you really have brought immense value to the Everquest community, despite what others say. I'm also thankful that Daybreak has kept an aging fossil of a game alive with a shoestring budget. I just hope there can be a compromise in the middle to allow boxing in certain places.

For now, I have paused my accounts so that is at least $90/month they are no longer receiving.

I have been playing around on Project Lazerus and having fun thus far. Would love to see more support for the Emu builds of very vanilla and the CTWN plugins.

But most of all, just wanted to stay THANK YOU!

1653921374124.png
 

Redemption44

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RedCents
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Damn, that sucks man. Clearly they are not fucking about at this point. I have had multiple suspensions but have never had a ban yet. But, if they do, I will take the same route you are. That will be my sign from God that its time to stop dumping time and money into this game. :shrug:
Sorry to hear that buddy, i've been suspended for my 7 characters about 8 months ago and a month later i unsubbed them and told them if they change thier policies of suspending and banning people for 3rd part software i might come back.
 

Hulkman

n1 have 1 cool trick?
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RedCents
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The Jail server is basically the ZEK server from what I understand. Free transfer to Zek server and then I think you cannot get off it either

It would be interesting what that server is like and how much it is monitored
 

Sic

[sic]
Moderator
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The Jail server is basically the ZEK server from what I understand. Free transfer to Zek server and then I think you cannot get off it either

It would be interesting what that server is like and how much it is monitored
No that is not the same in the slightest from what a jail server is historically been.

Even holly said it is a better thing in theory than in reality.
 
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can we in the mean time, do a release that doesn't get us suspended, like no mq2melee or plugin's that give a user, a clear advantage over normal players... plugins like MQ2fps , this way my money still gets me something i can use. i also know i can unload the plugins but they may just be useing the programs name to detect ... and this way the "New Program" you release has nothing to do with a program that gives a user, a clear advantage over normal players
 

Sic

[sic]
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can we in the mean time, do a release that doesn't get us suspended, like no mq2melee or plugin's that give a user, a clear advantage over normal players... plugins like MQ2fps , this way my money still gets me something i can use. i also know i can unload the plugins but they may just be useing the programs name to detect ... and this way the "New Program" you release has nothing to do with a program that gives a user, a clear advantage over normal players
there is no "1 cool trick".

you can certainly unload things you don't want, but understand that mq is mq is mq is mq - equally against their rules all the way across
 
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can we in the mean time, do a release that doesn't get us suspended, like no mq2melee or plugin's that give a user, a clear advantage over normal players... plugins like MQ2fps , this way my money still gets me something i can use. i also know i can unload the plugins but they may just be useing the programs name to detect ... and this way the "New Program" you release has nothing to do with a program that gives a user, a clear advantage over normal players
Or you can just not load...just sayin'...treat your bots like cattle, not pets and a little 7 day vacay here and there won't phase ya
 
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Well, I have been on a mini strike for about 3 weeks, I haven't played since then.

I have never been suspended or caught in anything, just still mad that can happen. Always been very careful, but now I do not care.
I even did stupid things like AFK for hours, I didn't care, my subs ran out, and not going to resub anytime soon. I am sitting on Kronos a lot of them and not going to use them.

One thing, I do miss you guys, hence why I am still here, lol.
 

Aipoc76

Redneck Coder
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can we in the mean time, do a release that doesn't get us suspended, like no mq2melee or plugin's that give a user, a clear advantage over normal players... plugins like MQ2fps , this way my money still gets me something i can use. i also know i can unload the plugins but they may just be useing the programs name to detect ... and this way the "New Program" you release has nothing to do with a program that gives a user, a clear advantage over normal players
You can edit your macroquest.ini file. put a 0 on plugins you do not want, and a 1 on those you do then save. You do this before starting mq, and they will not load.

If you are asking what plugins give you a advantage over other players, well I'd probably just put a 0 next to about all of them. Even the mq2map gives you a advantage over other players.
 
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Red, Sic, Knightly, CWTN, and all at RG - you guys are amazing and the impact to Rizlona for me (especially during covid) is hard to communicate in a public forum... Meant/means alot.

Some background in case Darkpaw reads this. I easily spent over $3-5K per year on the game. I would buy exp potions, mounts, expansions even pre-rizlona at the top tier for 6 toons...simply to support daybreak. For a long time I bought krono directly from the store also to support them, because I love EQ and I want to see it continue. I logged 1 or 2 tickets in 20 years of playing EQ, don't troll on forums or discord.

In other words from a business perspective I have about the highest CLV (customer lifetime value) and certainly one of the higher profit margins of any customer. Given I supported and helped run a guild, my network effects kept additional revenue engaged. The more boxers you have driving more drops the less each drop costs which aids more casuals gearing up to be able to raid with friends or even group content - i.e. they see progress.

That being said. I unsubbed my 18 accounts and stopped on 6 kr only accounts a few months ago.

This is for three reasons:

1). The time-outs / bans and fear of permabans made people quit simply because there are other options to spend thousands of dollars on.
2). EQ content changes very much after Omens in DoN with faction and Vish, and it seems to repeat over and over. It's just not that engaging for boxers.
3). The sentiment that many of us had that Jen Chan and others were rude and hostile to the player base who is paying for the game, including using words like "cheater" which is not only degrading but infantile. If you didn't want us boxing, why did you create rizlona to get thousands of dollars from us to then ban us?

My recommendations:

1). Continue your redguides subscription. Support the community.
2). Cancel EQ accounts, maybe go KR only. Buy from ECT.
3). Continue to engage with Darkpaw, do not threaten but share the concerns of the community.
4). Determine a business plan to monetize an EMU server up to omens (maybe a redhat to centos equivalent of lazarus or whatever EMU).
5). Do not make it cheap, if we could afford hundreds to thousands of USD per year, we can pay a bit for the EMU.
6). Fork / Restart that server back to classic each year.
 

Redemption44

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Agree with ya i miss the game, and interaction with some people but, the core fallacy of 3rd party software use has prevented me from playing for about 10 months now, i check this forum frome time to time, but im just doing my half life alyx and other things to occupy my time when not working. I will be back one of these days maybe if they ever change till then ciao!
 
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I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:
  • When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
  • While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
  • We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.


EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried 😅. Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!
I'd through my vote in for boycott. They only thing they will listen to is money. Now the plan would be when this year's expansion is release. No MQ user buys the new expansion for 3 months after it's release. This will give DarkPaw to analyze the 20-30% decline in DLC purchases for this year. Let Jennifer Chan get the heat for such a disastrous release. Make her step aside or realize the direction they took to crack down on automation software was a huge mistake. Let them back peddle into relaxing the suspension waves. Of course this would never be communicated directly but there will be subtle hints from them that they have relaxed. Then we thank them by all buying the expansion and returning to the game we love. I've already stop subbing on 8 of my box accounts. My main is Lifetime member so no more money is coming from me until they do this. And this is the only way I can think that they would listen.
 

Zatox

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I have 15 active account not paid by krono but my hard earned cash. I had to cancel 9 accounts due to being suspended for the 4th time 2 weeks ago.
Currently I'm only boxing a full group of 6, if and when I receive another suspension / ban, I will say my goodbyes to EQ and move on to something new.

If DPG is reading this.. Please, just let us do our own thing, we aren't monopolizing nor are we perma camping nameds, I'm just in a damn instance by myself trying to get this stupid amount of AA's thats required for a shaman.
 
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To all you guys facing down the gun barrel on live, I understand completely and I was broken hearted that I had to give up the my only true love in online games. I've played almost everything else out there and nothing holds me like EQ does. But I refuse to have my characters that I've played since 2001 perma ban so I won't risk any more suspensions. By the same token I cannot play my full group without 3rd party software without severely aggravating my carpal tunnel. So I was stuck in the worst no win situation.

I thought out of desperation I would try these emulator servers and see if there's anything there I can hang on to. After many attempts with different servers that all felt wrong, were too easy or had 2 players online.. I finally found a home on the project Lazarus server. While it's not perfect, it is the best thing going at the moment. I highly recommend giving it a go before you walk away from EQ all together. There is plenty of activity in OOC (serverwide) chat, lots of players and a pretty balanced system without bizarre changes to the base game like some of them out there.

Just give it some thought and look over the wiki page for the server or join the discord and see if it's something that will fill that hole in your gaming life.

Lazarus Wiki Page

I hate that DPG has taken this road, but we won't change that any time soon, perhaps ever. I fear they will run the game completely into the ground before they give up this witch hunt.
 
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In Vanguard I used to 6 box using virtual desktops software. So you dragged each client onto a virtual desktop and then I could tab straight to it using Ctrl 1-6 or whatever. So nothing was automated, I was playing them all by myself... I had a GM follow me around basically harassing me and sending me little popups on various characters that I had to click. He was doing this to someone who had paid for the game, was playing 6 accounts manually, in a game that was almost dead with hardly any other players in the world!!! And all I was doing was questing and doing normal noob shit by myself. And it was all because some passing jealous cocksucker saw me and reported me for 'botting' because he saw me running around with 6 characters on autofollow. The game was dead within 6 months of this happening.

That's the mentality of scum. I don't want anything to do with people who think like that and I definitely don't want them getting any of my money.
 
Joined
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In Vanguard I used to 6 box using virtual desktops software. So you dragged each client onto a virtual desktop and then I could tab straight to it using Ctrl 1-6 or whatever. So nothing was automated, I was playing them all by myself... I had a GM follow me around basically harassing me and sending me little popups on various characters that I had to click. He was doing this to someone who had paid for the game, was playing 6 accounts manually, in a game that was almost dead with hardly any other players in the world!!! And all I was doing was questing and doing normal noob shit by myself. And it was all because some passing jealous cocksucker saw me and reported me for 'botting' because he saw me running around with 6 characters on autofollow. The game was dead within 6 months of this happening.

That's the mentality of scum. I don't want anything to do with people who think like that and I definitely don't want them getting any of my money.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a common human "feature". The classic example of giving a person just a little bit of power over other people and they ultimately turn into abusive tyrants.

Most of us have probably seen this IRL at work or even small things like internet forums where a pretty cool guy gets elevated to Moderator and soon turns into a frothing at the mouth Forum Nazi condescending to and berating people for the smallest infractions and censoring content left and right.

I suspect plenty of GMs do fall into that micro-penis, overcompensating, petty tyrant category but I will also have to admit there are plenty of good GMs out there for sure. I have had GMs help me on broken quests, missing items and stuck characters on MANY occasions of the past 20 years so I dont want to paint them all with the same brush by any means.

Perhaps the ultimate demise of EQ will be heralded by the exact opposite scenario though. No customer support, no GMs there to help the handfull of players still getting milked for their last dollar until the day the server gets switched off. (people like ME! lol)

GM Cartman:
respect-my-authority-cartman.gif
 

lanceval

20yrs Never Suspended
Joined
May 27, 2012
RedCents
1,187¢
I feel that profitability is the only thing that would possibly make a difference on the long run.
So it is probably good to postpone any purchases with DB for a year.
This is not going to be quick. So be patient.
In the meantime, that the perfect opportunity to explore EMU or switch to full FTP.
 

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