Request - How should we respond to suspension waves? (2 Viewers)

[Redbot]

I've been talking with a few people about this for months, but ultimately MacroQuest is an open source project, so I'd like to open this conversation to everyone.

How should RedGuides respond to the recent 7-day suspension waves? We don't have the resources of a $300,000,000 company, but we certainly have passion. What should we focus it on?

Some things to keep in mind:

• When reading this thread, you'll notice up ▲ and down ▼ arrows next to each reply. Use them to upvote ideas you agree with.
• While a lot of us are upset about suspensions (people are venting on here and social media) we need to keep in mind that we're EverQuest fans. We're here because of the work and creativity from Darkpaw Games, so please show them respect even if you disagree with their judgement.
• We assume several thousand people use MacroQuest, though this is a very rough estimate as we don't log anything in game nor are we the only distributor. DPG has a much better idea about usage than we do.

EDIT & SUMMARY

If you took the time to vote or reply, thank you. Here's the primary action suggested in every post with at least two votes:

Add detection safeguards to MQ + 149
Communicate with DPG + 101
Boycott / Stop playing altogether + 55
Stay the course / No change +49
Focus on Emu +20
Stop promoting our playstyle +20
Remove Truebox restrictions +9
Add more "anti"-features such as anti-AFK checks. + 7
Turn on safety features by default: audible alerts on say, tell, /ooc camp checks, etc. + 4
lol +2

The highest two suggestions have been heard loud and clear. I imagine an effective boycott would need organization, I'm open to it but not just yet. Staying the course has already been tried . Emulator is attractive for many reasons, and work has already begun on MacroQuest for emu clients. I don't think we'll take down our youtubes or relax truebox restrictions anytime soon. I wouldn't push for anti-features without some type of assurance they'd help our cause. Some safety defaults like those hotpocket suggested will probably be in a commit soon.

Again, thank you all for the replies and for sticking with us to this point. If there are any ideas I missed, or improperly summarized, please reply!

 

[Sic]

The problem with this theory is it's all based on people "abusing" MQ2. I was suspended this week without even using MQ2. I was using ShowEQ and I was using the Very Vanilla launcher to launch it. Nothing more.

well, you weren't suspended for using mq by not using mq =p

myseq/seq have definitely been annoyances and complains and definitely a "third party software" item by dbg since they existed

 

[sourpickels]

Half measures avail nothing. Whatever is decided. War, diplomacy, whichever, make it 100%.

Agreed

 

[Jimijam]

Im thinking about setting up my own EMU server.. I see its atleast up to ROF? , I have a rack mount dl360 already. I have been suspended "fairly" once but its stressful worrying about this stuff. I quit for 10 years and just checked EQ out and red guides and RG is what got me hooked and ive now got 12 gold accounts and i mind my own business but enjoy having the game running while Im studying ( at the keyboard ) . Before RG i would just pull, lock aggro with my SK.. and hit (1) for my heal macro every couple minutes while i looked at my book.. Anyways.. Im sure many of you folks have found the game to have a second life so to speak with being able to deck out your other toons long after you have maxed out your mains potential. Anyways, my point is I dont like what ive seen as far as their treatment of other people.. Im really starting to resent giving them money and frankly jobs. People loosing 20 year old toons and not even being bale to get ahold of someone on CS end is unacceptable. It really seems like there are Tyrants running it.. I want to support the game but that places my toons at risk... So my alternative is to just play FTP accounts but id like to support the game and feel like im contributing to extending the games life...IDK, one day im going to make 500 gnomes and riot POK =) ... sorry to rant.

 

[Sifter228]

Not that I'm advocating for the use of truebox. Simply to point out that it would only be dishonorable if there was an agreement in place. Which there is not.

It's clear RG respects true box. Doesn't matter if you think it's not an agreement. Allowing RG to run on true box would be seen as an act of agresssion.

 

[Sifter228]

I was responding to if it would "honorable" or not. Nothing in regards to it being seen as "aggression"

Think of it as an understood you. There's an agreement it's just understood to be. A radical betrayal of one's own values is violating an understanding of whom.

 

[Sifter228]

No, no agreement.

I'm speaking of social behaviors and expected norms as in when rg clearly says the don't support true box it is expected and rightfully so by everyone that rg would not just stop doing that.

 

[VestalBears]

Simple:-

Open MQ to TLP.

(Mod edit note: MQ does work on non-truebox tlps - i believe q8's response was meant to be "truebox")

 

[Sic]

We’ve had the discussion before but I suffer from CRAFT. Why is it a bad thing? It’s widely known that damn near everyone on Riz uses some form of automation and openly. You almost never hear about suspensions on that server and I personally feel is a great server and a great economy. It’s had a few suspensions but I consider them more token than them trying to send a strict message. Even if you had some rules like no active hacks or anything that is an overt burden to the servers. Something comes forth that is causing issues, the devs can say look knock that shit off it’s causing to much stress on the infrastructure. Make all accounts paid accounts like a TLP.

I understand it would hurt some that F2P but the company has to have the funds to keep it going. Adding a burden to the company and not offering a revenue source is a quick way to say don’t take me serious.

you can search where i've explained a few times and don't intend or re-re-re-re-re-re-rehashing it every time it gets brought up, but i'd be doing myself and others a disservice by not saying "we don't want this"

prison server = no customer support
prison server = one way
prison server = run by the inmates (toxic)
prison server = think of the worst most toxic person you can think of in your general chat - now give them free reign to say/do things without repercussions.
prison server = does 0 to solve most of the reasons people box
prison server = good majority of folks who box aren't going to ditch their guild/friends/raid to go to the above listed shithole

even Holly mentioned how it looks better on paper than in actuality. they did it in eq2 > here <

 

[Sifter228]

There is no honor among thieves.

Ain't no thieves in here... Right?

 

[Sifter228]

- I think DB sees MQ as a contributing factor to their latency problem.

That's not possible. VV only functions locally and doesn't "communicate" with EQ servers. The most it does is:
Authenticate your VV build as paid
Send crash reports to RG

Not sure why this isn't a valid post on topic and correct information. There's no way VV causes server latency.

 

[microscope]

I hate DBG, negative respect, same for SOE. EQ was a masterpiece made by people who are no longer involved with it. Everyone else has proven for decades they have no clue how to replicate it, they have no idea what made it almost a household name to begin with and what made it special, or even what separates it from every other MMO. They proved this with failure after failure and syphoned EQ's profits down that huge ravenous toilet. They disrespected and damaged their own creation, and their own audience, as they did every step of the game's life, pioneering concepts like microtransactions and p2w all at the expense of their game and their players. I always thought of them as one of the worst companies ever, stumbled into a one hit wonder and then pissed it all up the wall in the most disgusting fashion. The whole idea of this "Truebox" thing is completely idiotic, and just another example of why they are a morons and don't deserve to be in business. It is indefensibly stupid, as is everything they do. All their crappy fly by night TLPs and just everything. They suck. I know everyone loves EQ and you wanted us to respect the creation or whatever, but I've played EQ since 1999 and never felt any different. I see it like a child, the most wonderful child prodigy, but it's parents are pure trash. I like my EQ Emu, it can feel solitary but there are other multiplayer games for me. But I like having the pure EQ experience without worrying about some idiotic GM team watching over me and making stupid choices and making money off me in the process. I have no part in this, but I don't think they deserve your money or efforts. My advice would be to fight against them.

 

[Sic]

I am reading through the threads and everyone has great points!! BUT

I do not see anyone coming up with an actual and viable solution to the problem (or actual question mentioned by RedBot). We need a cause and effect thread In my opinion to come up what the best way understand and get around all the hassle.

If there was an easy "one cool trick to solve all the world's woes" this would be the discussion to post it in. So if you have one, because clearly no one else has the ez 1 trick answer, please post it :p

 

[an_image]

If there was an easy "one cool trick to solve all the world's woes" this would be the discussion to post it in. So if you have one, because clearly no one else has the ez 1 trick answer, please post it :p

All crybaby bitches on every server go...

 

[Sifter228]

Not everyone is getting hit. 6 -12 accounts running 24/7 since 01/10/2022.

 

[Sifter228]

24/7? So you're letting your accounts run while you're AFK?

Yes.

People let their accounts go AFK and use MQ on truebox TLP servers and we wonder why they started suspending/banning?

I don't play on true box. My posse runs wide of other people. I haven't seen another player in days. My logs show it's just my group(s) alone in a zone for days. EQ is huge.

 

[Sifter228]

Anyone who thinks talking to them at this point would matter is in denial. They have made it clear where they stand. They have no reason to talk at this point.

There is nothing gained by RG by not talking. Talking with DPG would be the best course of action. Diplomatic solutions should always be pursued.

 

[william12]

There is nothing gained by RG by not talking. Talking with DPG would be the best course of action. Diplomatic solutions should always be pursued.

You're delusional if you think talking to them will change anything. You have no leverage to make them compromise there position on MQ. Years ago we had leverage they wanted to launch TLP servers MQ free so they had something to gain from it. If we're not willing to open MQ up to TLP servers we have no leverage period.

They want basically everything that makes MQ useful gone. Map, Automation, etc all of it.

 

[Szazor]

Hey...dont blame Trolls! Lets call him an Ogre!

 

[microscope]

In that case, can you elaborate on what you didn't appreciate about it? I definitely wasn't trying to offend anyone, just stating my opinion on it.

Because it was platitudes like a reddit post. And it was at the expense of my post. It's also terrible manners/netiquette to reply to a post making that many points and you go to town on one point and disregard everything else in the post.

My point which you ignored is that they completely disrespected YOUR GAME by stealing all the huge profits that it made. It could have completely changed EQs future (now past), but instead you got nickel and dimed for every spell slot and bank slot, and farmed like chickens for 28 copy paste expansions from a team of interns. Meanwhile all EQs profit and energy was spent on this huge list of crap, and that's the people we are dealing with yet nobody seems to be honest about it. They are a terrible company that disrespected the game and the community a million times and in million ways, and over many games. They also basically stole from us what happened with Vanguard. If I ever meet Smedley that mf personally owes me about $200... SOE has always been terrible and it's now been taken over by some Russian mafia money. The fact anyone holds any sort of reverence for them is annoying and ignorant of history. None of these fools had anything to do with EQ, they just inherited it. They are a terrible company, treat their customers terribly, anyone who goes along with it or gives them any money is an enabler.

Also what you said was annoying to read. Most of us who loved early EQ have had to suffer two decades and thousands of shitty MMOs, that all completely ignored EQ. They are all happy to steal the concept, but they do it the WoW way, the anti-EQ way. So everything has quest hubs and GPS maps and sparkly icons over everything and pay to win, and no corpse runs and no sense heading and none of that stuff you listed in your post that was supposed to be impossible to reproduce... Yet we have whole new genres like Souls clones and roguelikes and things designed for people who like harshness.

 

[gameross]

For those talking about a MQ for emulators, there has been one available for years at: https://mqemulator.net/

 

[Hulkman]

The Jail server is basically the ZEK server from what I understand. Free transfer to Zek server and then I think you cannot get off it either

It would be interesting what that server is like and how much it is monitored

 

[boikawt]

Half measures avail nothing. Whatever is decided. War, diplomacy, whichever, make it 100%.

Ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

 

[Jetanroth]

I feel personally attacked~

Definitely NOT Bro! You are one of the most helpful and even tempered guys on here!

I feel you always at least try to see multiple perspectives on most discussions and I always appreciate you for that even if I don't agree with you!

 

[q8reflex]

Redbot i'm not emotional about it, i just ADORE this community and the fantastic productivity. We have a winning card, we should use it. TLP/TrueBox is the yearly peak of their income, by showing them the impact of MQ stones on table might turn to our favor.

If not, i suggest spreading a copy of The Art of War to all devs and heads of RG.

-- my 2 RG cents

 

[Sifter228]

I am always a bit confused by the reluctance to allow on truebox at this time and let me try to explain why.

RG isn’t bypassing truebox at all. You still need a PC per account. The point of truebox has always been about open world contested raid mobs and the scalability of VM or just multiple clients monopolizing those mobs. This was because of the first two servers being 72 mages insta killing raid mobs. RG doesn’t help that scalability.

Now we can continue with this stance of not allowing it on truebox because we think it’s the right thing to do. Nobody else is playing by that rule though which only leaves a potentially exploit heavy build available day 1 of every truebox server or self compiles of the source code of RG anyways.

For those that don’t know, even if you self compile RG the CWTN plugins disallow usage of themselves on those servers. So they’ve made their stance independently which I doubt would change if the community decided as a whole that it should be compiled to be usable on those servers. This makes the conversation really kind of moot.

There isn’t any chance that redbot allows hacks in and our community wouldn’t ask for that. The paid plugins of note aren’t usable even if the community wants truebox restrictions lifted. We can’t take legal action. There is no way to go underground because it’s not that we aren’t secret that’s causing the bans.

I just don't see the added value to RG to allow RG use on True Box. Just makes us look dishonorable not trust worthy.

 

[madruk20]

Speculating is not really going to do anything. They'll never tell people directly what they're banning you for. Just have to play and accept the risks that what you're doing can get you a vacation. You're using a third party program and even if all it does is send smiley faced emotes to someone, they can ban you for it. Regardless I'd recommend being as low key as possible and don't use the things that make it very obvious you're using something (ie keyboard turning, sitting melees on servers without ooc regen, broadcasting all at once, etc etc). Either way I don't think even think that matters as much anymore it looks like they're just automating banning on top of reports now anyway.

 

[Maskoi]

Not cool.

Sorry I was raised on Tallon Zek. MQ just added a whole other level of grief. Fuck those idiots.
If you were using MQ in a way to grief or kill steal raid mobs I would report you immediately.

 

[mroutlaw]

dpg needs to give us our own server which i thought was rizlona and leave us alone there if folks doing sketchy shit on other servers let em ban see how dead the live servers become and maybe they lighten up

 

[Grimreefer]

A jail server with private pick options So no one can enter your zone pick unless grouped, or in raid, fellowship etc (permission) so many options here…. I would be down for an all out strike I would simply sit all my characters in guild lobby, only log on my main… and tell my guild im no longer helping/playing until mq is allowed. I know for a fact atleast 20 non-mq players would take sides with boxers just to have me back in their groups.

I box but I’m also very social, and I only box because without boxing, I’d get no where. I always kick my boxes to make room for actual players! Then use my boxes as oog support.

 

[william12]

Anyone who thinks talking to them at this point would matter is in denial. They have made it clear where they stand. They have no reason to talk at this point. And yes all of you should STOP posting youtube videos using MQ. No idea wth you were thinking in the first place.

 

[Synwulfe]

I may have missed it, apologies if I did... have we considered an open dialog with DBG about opening a MQ2 server? Ban it on every other server but duplicate the FV server with MQ2 allowed. Three gains for DBG... First, the charge to transfer toons to the new server, consider it our penance, and it becomes among the top revenue generating servers they have. Second, the loyalty and activity of the MQ2 community. Third, they've satisfied every complaint received from the Nancy's and they look like the hero.

It's this or development needs to shift focus to Emu's.

 

[Sic]

A fair point but I feel it’s different than what we (maybe just me) have in mind. You absolutely have support because I’m a paying customer. A prison server is a server I spin up and I make the rules. Like I would consider the project1999 server as a prison server. I’m referring to a server that has support, has rules, has everything the current EQ has but doesn’t have automation restrictions. Have it optional like I feel rizlona was. They launched two servers one truebox, one not. Launch a new server and allow players to move to it and make it very strictly clear this “live” server is automation free. No warnings and instant bans will be issued for confirmed automating on this server. This other server automation is tolerated. They have servers today with different rule sets. Why can’t you do the same and one rule is automation allowed. They launch new TLPs all the time and as I understand it it’s a money maker. I don’t know the number but how many “subs” have they lost because of the suspension / ban waves over the years. Not people but subs.

I’m not saying a prison server where the misfits are banished to. A meet in the middle solution.

dbg isn't going to be like "ah cool here have exactly what you want" when people ask for this, the answer is a prison server. if we could just say "hai guys can we have xyz" it would just be usage on regular servers lol

 

[Dysanor]

This may have already been suggested in others' posts, but what about the idea of moving everyone who wants to use MQ to one server? DPG frames the new accommodation any way they want, but the implicit understanding is that no one will be suspended or banned on that server for using MQ. If people choose to remain on other servers, then they take their chances.

Do I get a prize for the most disliked idea?

 

[Sic]

Do I get a prize for the most disliked idea?

just know that a lot of folks do want what you want - they just don't realize asking for it will result in something that we don't want. you're a good dude dys

 

[Krujoeclipse81]

I think we as a community, need to be mindful of other players for one. if you been camping in 1 spot for several hours and someone shows up in zone offer the spot to them, maybe they are there just for a specific loot. and your there for the same reason but its just 1 guy who cant ever find groups go head let him have it. there will be more opportunity for you.

I have faith in the RG devs i think they have made wise choices over the years, even if at times they can seem rude they only have the best intentions for us.

That being said the following is something i wish DB would do.
Give us our own server i really don't care how they word it. It could be Anarchy (no gm support, transfers) I don't fully wanna suggest software scans but if the implement something like that and detect you running MQ only show this server. I wouldn't mind hanging out in a server with like minded individuals. at least we wouldn't be so worried if an account we worked hard on is going to be suspended and or ban. this way they would still generate income from us though monthly subs and or DB store. there are some in the community who box several groups at once. seems like that would be worth thinking about at least.

 

[swarmhost9922]

I am starting to think that maybe emu's won't be safe much longer either. IIRC there was an agreement reached with P99 around the same time that there was an agreement about not running MQ on True Box. All bets are off now I suspect

P99 does not, at all, enforce any rules on any other EQEmu server. Think of EQEmu as tool. P99 took that tool and used it to create their own playground. Other EQEmu servers can do as they please.

As @EvilBarny said, the most that DBG could do is send a C&D but they cannot enforce rules on any EQEmu server.

My feeling on this is: RG keeps doing our thing. Making sweeping changes won't matter unless you purge automation from MQ which will leave us with a /stick program. It is clear they don't want automation, MQ or really any third-party software in any form.

• The vast majority of players using RG have a few actions to take:
  • Continue playing with MQ and understand you will possibly be suspended/banned for breaking the rules.
  • Continue playing the game without MQ. It isn't impossible, you don't need to box 6+ characters to progress even at a very casual pace.
  • Stop supporting the game by cutting your ties with the company.
• DBG can create, change and enforce rules however they want. Anyone who disagrees or wants to enact retaliation of any level needs a reality check. You agreed to their rules by accept the EULA. Stop trying to justify breaking their EULA. You broke it - that is all that matters. What you do or what your intention is with MQ doesn't matter. By using third-party software you are breaking the rules.

With all of that said, I will still support RG every month with my subscription. I will also still support DBG with my subscriptions as they aren't doing anything "crazy". I support everyone's decisions to keep playing or quit. There are no right or wrong answers outside of lashing out like an asshole to the company that just punished you for breaking one of their rules.

 

[krawdad]

People let their accounts go AFK and use MQ on truebox TLP servers and we wonder why they started suspending/banning?

That's what I've wondered. How have we 'normalized' botting? Why do we think that is ok for 'normal play'?
We have shot ourselves in the foot with this.
I understand that people can play how they want with what tools are available, but at this point we need to police ourselves.
I know there are other flavors or MQ available, but the RG community is a cut above the rest.
We should set a higher standard of play and respect.

 

[Synwulfe]

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the jail server term, I've been away from EQ for a while. I'm thinking paid transfers to, no transfers off (I assume that's where the jail term comes from?), possibly even subs required for each account so DBG gains more than is lost.

I'm not aware of what drama their would be... maybe I make the mistake of making presumptions based on my own experiences... I guess I've always viewed MQ2 users to be more the loner type than those seeking drama.

 

[an_image]

So many games out there. thankfully this witch hunt managed to break my addiction to eq. its gone. I am enjoying my break. I log on my guys sometimes to run overseer for lower lv but i haven't killed a mob i think since April the 4th. Also haven't spent any cash so win win? heh.. enjoying the site. still enjoy logging into RG and reading forums.

Like everyone else I am 100% sure I will bb eventually. got krono and plat banked and waiting.

Money ALWAYS talks. u don't pay, eventually that will get noticed by people who invested to make money. Surveys etc are great but at the end of the day, even if u do not use a credit card or w/e to pay for your subs... ie buy krono... someone is paying for that somewhere with real life cash and that market has been taking a beating now. Gotta remember that. a monthly sub was paid for by a real person somewhere along the way. It didn't come off looting a mob.

cya again keep on chatting. This forum is the best

Agree...the way i see it...if everyone unsubbed/cancelled today...even with people that were subbed for monthly, 3-month, 12-month...etc...the true impact of this foolishness won't actually hit their books for a couple of quarters. Their stock's not been doing great...angering any portion of their shrinking player based is really suicide, specially if the anger the part of their player base that provides a higher per acct revenue.

I've said this a couple of times...outside of irrational behavior (which I wouldn't put past some of the DBG dev's) the only context in which this makes sense is if they're gearing-up/cleaning house to flip the intellectual property (IP/Game) soon. If you look at what they've announced in their roadmap and implemented in terms of changes I don't see this company hanging on to EQ for Year(s)...i'd say months at most.

 

[MadaSnave]

so what your saying is keep buying lottory tickets and hope to win enough jack pots to put a bid on it and then shape the game in my own immage like and overlord with full power trip and ego powers MUHAHAHA. My first rulling is that all connections to server shall be slowed down to 53.3kbps!