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  • A TLP without truebox has thawed (Very Vanilla ready)
    Frostreaver
MQ2War

Plugin - MQ2War 3.1.52471.11

Hey Sic - I remember we've talked about this before.... but I main a warrior. Allowing the tank to run out of endurance and not be able to keep up defensive stances or taunt really breaks this plugin for me. I get it for rogues, zerkers, and the like where attack speed matters, but even with TOV / COV raid gear and a bard, max AA, I top out at 350k-400k DPS most of the time, and often enough sword and board, I'm lucky to hit 200-250. I'm not DPS, but I need endurance to do the tanky things. I will sacrafice attack speed for the ability to taunt in absolutely any fight if it comes down to it. If I'm working on playing/ learning a different class and not babysitting the warrior we can die without taunts and defenses (speaking of, see #2). If i've got 4-25 COV mobs (dragon necropolis beatles and spiders), the fight is going to take a while. Reallllly could use a way to use Relax on auto. If this wasn't a paid plugin, I wouldn't ask again... but could you work in an implementation of a toggle settings button to use it some time, please? Keep it unchecked by default, but let me decide if I want to use it.
#2 question - how can I better make sure the warrior is switching targets and grabbing aggro on adds (maybe 30-80 feet away)? being too slow to snap up aggro when there are 3+ mobs on extended targets, means the cleric goes down too often. I've messed with camp radius some, the more narrow it is (~40), the closer we will keep the fight together and adds will not be as spread out and we won't as often fight past a hill or around a corner... the wider it is (~70-80), more area will be watched - but still after the third add when the only two AOE hate abilities are down target switching is not consistent. (AOE abilities: area taunt, and the one I have relabeled 3x taunt nearby - not counting temptest blades, which seems to be blocked from use by something else on the same timer and rampage).
Thanks! MOTD
1. Click it if u want to click it. Nothing is stopping you. We won't be automatically doing it, nor adding a toggle option. you can always use mq2react or have a short macro to do something like that, but we definitely do not have plans to add it. I understand what you're saying, and your stated use case, but from an automation stand point, it introduces more issues than it fixes in mine and cwtn's opinions.

2. Swap targets if you want to swap targets, you are not target locked, nor do you swap targets, that is the job for your CC, or you as the maestro/driver of your group to decide if you want to swap around to something else.
 
Relax blows now anyway, when it was bugged it was brilliant, but now it correctly applies the 1000% slow to you it's not something you'd want to use in combat anyway... especially when the main gripe is not picking up agro quick enough...

FYI the comment about Tempest Blades, it shares a timer with Knuckle Break. It would indeed be nice if Knuckle Break wasn't part of the normal rotation (it locks up Tempest for 2mins (permanently since Knuckle is mashed) when it would otherwise be usable every 45secs and is very nice AE agro)
 
We use tempest blades if you have UseAoe Turned on and your xtarget count is greater than or equal to your aoe count.

if you don't have useaoe on, we use knuckle.
 
Oooh! so if was to turn aoe on, but jack up the aoe count to a silly high number.... that'd let me use either as I see fit?
 
No to Relax line. It's been stated time and time again that the use of it is silly.

The warrior doesn't automatically switch targets and grab aggro, it will only engage the closest thing that enters the camp. It's the CC's job to put everything else on lockdown until the tank is ready to get it. AoE abilities will do that, if any are available.

Agree that relax should not be on auto. The only time I use it is in raid setting upon getting a rez and I am not needing to tank. I can quickly get some end so I can use defensives again. I still don't think I understand how the plugin effectively uses Fortitude as my experience is that it gets used upon rez and we're getting beat on but I never have enough endurance for it last anywhere near it's full duration. Also with a raid breastplate, we get double the duration. I'd love to see it go non-auto or a toggle. No one else brings this up though, so if Im alone in this opinion then I don't expect any change.
 
Agree that relax should not be on auto. The only time I use it is in raid setting upon getting a rez and I am not needing to tank. I can quickly get some end so I can use defensives again. I still don't think I understand how the plugin effectively uses Fortitude as my experience is that it gets used upon rez and we're getting beat on but I never have enough endurance for it last anywhere near it's full duration. Also with a raid breastplate, we get double the duration. I'd love to see it go non-auto or a toggle. No one else brings this up though, so if Im alone in this opinion then I don't expect any change.
its used as a last resort - if we get rezzed back into combat and have nothing to fire except it, we're going to fire it. we don't have any plans to add it as a toggle. I can add a toggle if its such a problem. But we intentionally don't add toggles for everything. People tend to start changing stuff with no clue what it does and then ends up with issues when its set to do how they have it set.

its automation - we're set as tank, we don't have an active disc, but there are mobs the automation is thinking we're supposed to be tanking, the last thing we can use is fort, we're gonna click it
 
its used as a last resort - if we get rezzed back into combat and have nothing to fire except it, we're going to fire it. we don't have any plans to add it as a toggle. I can add a toggle if its such a problem. But we intentionally don't add toggles for everything. People tend to start changing stuff with no clue what it does and then ends up with issues when its set to do how they have it set.

its automation - we're set as tank, we don't have an active disc, but there are mobs the automation is thinking we're supposed to be tanking, the last thing we can use is fort, we're gonna click it

I definitely see where you're coming from. Especially the bit about people changing stuff they don't understand. That's a tough one. I just can't figure a work around for it. I wonder if it would be better if it wasn't automated at all. The biggest problem I have with it is that it never seems to last more than 1-2 seconds when it's used. For folks that have any level of raid BP, that can mean 20+ seconds of the ability isn't used. 10 ish for group warriors. I was really hoping to get some other users to weigh in. I know the change to dicho has been awesome for me personally. I use it manually and it allows me to tank several of the current raids without having to rotate a 2nd tank in. I know the plugins need to be designed for the majority and the simpler they are, often the better. At the end of the day, the plugin's benefits far outweigh the issue I have.
 
I definitely see where you're coming from. Especially the bit about people changing stuff they don't understand. That's a tough one. I just can't figure a work around for it. I wonder if it would be better if it wasn't automated at all. The biggest problem I have with it is that it never seems to last more than 1-2 seconds when it's used. For folks that have any level of raid BP, that can mean 20+ seconds of the ability isn't used. 10 ish for group warriors. I was really hoping to get some other users to weigh in. I know the change to dicho has been awesome for me personally. I use it manually and it allows me to tank several of the current raids without having to rotate a 2nd tank in. I know the plugins need to be designed for the majority and the simpler they are, often the better. At the end of the day, the plugin's benefits far outweigh the issue I have.
yeah i definitely getcha, and i think your points are valid, and enough to justify the option. We try and accommodate any reasonable request we can, but it is much trickier than it sounds =p
 
Agree that relax should not be on auto. The only time I use it is in raid setting upon getting a rez and I am not needing to tank
Do you maybe mean breather? because relax is more of a i need to jump into combat right now and get endurance kind of thing, where as breather cant be used until you dont have anything on hatelist
 
Honestly, it's kinda getting to the point where I'm going to start suggesting people unload the plugin.

If you turn everything off, what's the point of the plugin?
 
is there a way to make the app stop using AE taunt and unending attention so i can use them manually?
turn your aoe count to something stupid like 20 for area taunt.

and if you don't want to use attention or other stuff that is used for burns, then turn off all burn usage - turn off burnallnamed, turn off burn always, don;t use burn always, and turn your burn count to something stupid like 20.

Alternatively, if you don't want to do tanking stuff, so you can do tanking stuff manually.

From the MQ2War FAQ:

Q. How do I make it not taunt?
A. You will use your tanking type stuff (including taunt) if you are in a tank mode (like 4, 5, 7, or 8), or you are assigned as Main Tank in your group window assignment. If you don't want to do tanking stuff (like taunt) put yourself in a non-tank mode (like 0 manual, 1 assist, etc) and don't be assigned as main tank in your group window. This will allow you to on-the-fly swap to doing tank stuff and non-tank stuff (like if you are off-tanking and need to swap with another tank). You can just quickly adjust your mode, or group assignment. Flow Chart > HERE <
 
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Honestly, it's kinda getting to the point where I'm going to start suggesting people unload the plugin.

If you turn everything off, what's the point of the plugin?
If I had to guess, I would wager that more than a few people use the plugin to play their main character, perhaps in a raid setting, and want to turn over ~80% of the ability usage to the plugin while retaining the other 20% of "special" abilities for their own use. Seems like a poor use case to me and not the objective you were going for to begin with.
 
Well the plugins were meant to act as group members without player intervention. They were given the ability to be "manual" in the sense that you would control the movement of the character, choose what to engage directly, and leave ability selection and use up to the plugin, with more complicated classes having some options to have a preference for one thing over another when abilities conflicted. It was honestly never intended to be a direct replacement for things like KA/MA where you choose what abilities to use, and under what conditions to use them, or to easily omit the usage of oddball abilities at a whim.

When someone request (or even demands in some cases) a toggle for an ability, it means the code must be adjusted to allow the toggle. Which sounds relatively easy. Make bool, give user option to flip it.
When in reality it's create bool, initialize bool, create INI option, make something that gets the INI option, make something that sets the INI option, make command parameter, add command parameter to the help output, make help output for the options of the bool, determine if we've already created enough button elements, if not alter the XML, add enums for the class specific toggle, create the checkbox, tell the checkbox what it's called, tell the checkbox what to do when toggled, tell the checkbox what the tooltip is, now that the toggle is in place, should we use something else in it's place, or does that defeat the purpose of the toggle. If it doesn't defeat the toggle, figure out what we should replace it with, determine where in the flow to add it, determine the conditions under which to use the new thing, and finally Add a TLO for the toggle. This in pretty much requires 5 separate files are edited to accommodate each toggle. Not to mention the time it takes to reflect on considering the changes, and any other work as mentioned in the "should I replace it with something else" thought process.

Which has to be done for every button we create. It's a fairly decent sized addition to the code in general to add a single toggle. Which is why we ask for justification for such things. It's not a completely trivial task to add a single button, and adding button on button on button for toggle on toggle on toggle gets quite redundant and takes away from development for all those other plugins people keep asking about.
Just pointing out that there comes a point where people want a toggle for every possible situation and it's going to end up that the entire plugin is one big toggle which detracts from the simplistic approach intended for the plugins. We saturate with too many options as Sic mentioned and people aren't going to have as easy a time getting setup and going because they are going to question if they should have things on, in what situations they would want to use one option over the other etc. A large portion of the users for the plugins just want to be able to load it, glance at a couple of things to consider and fullsend their group member into the jaws of death and expect the plugins to do it's job.

I want to stick to the "expect the plugins to do it's job" portion of things and not keep adding all the toggles. Because going down that road we'll end up with people also wanting conditions for every single option we add to the plugins for toggles. Which is pretty much how we ended up with TLO's so people could write macros that micro manage the plugins. Which, yall can thank Sic for that because I don't do any of the work on the TLO's at all. I'm not opposed to the idea I just don't want to put any effort into it as I feel it starts to get out of scope for the plugins.

This isn't meant to point the finger at any one user, or any group of users that might make a request for options. Just saying that we should keep in mind the original intent of the plugin and try to maintain that. There comes a point where one of the alternative resources might be a better fit for a user if they feel the need to decide each and every ability that's used.
 
Well the plugins were meant to act as group members without player intervention. They were given the ability to be "manual" in the sense that you would control the movement of the character, choose what to engage directly, and leave ability selection and use up to the plugin, with more complicated classes having some options to have a preference for one thing over another when abilities conflicted. It was honestly never intended to be a direct replacement for things like KA/MA where you choose what abilities to use, and under what conditions to use them, or to easily omit the usage of oddball abilities at a whim.

When someone request (or even demands in some cases) a toggle for an ability, it means the code must be adjusted to allow the toggle. Which sounds relatively easy. Make bool, give user option to flip it.
When in reality it's create bool, initialize bool, create INI option, make something that gets the INI option, make something that sets the INI option, make command parameter, add command parameter to the help output, make help output for the options of the bool, determine if we've already created enough button elements, if not alter the XML, add enums for the class specific toggle, create the checkbox, tell the checkbox what it's called, tell the checkbox what to do when toggled, tell the checkbox what the tooltip is, now that the toggle is in place, should we use something else in it's place, or does that defeat the purpose of the toggle. If it doesn't defeat the toggle, figure out what we should replace it with, determine where in the flow to add it, determine the conditions under which to use the new thing, and finally Add a TLO for the toggle. This in pretty much requires 5 separate files are edited to accommodate each toggle. Not to mention the time it takes to reflect on considering the changes, and any other work as mentioned in the "should I replace it with something else" thought process.

Which has to be done for every button we create. It's a fairly decent sized addition to the code in general to add a single toggle. Which is why we ask for justification for such things. It's not a completely trivial task to add a single button, and adding button on button on button for toggle on toggle on toggle gets quite redundant and takes away from development for all those other plugins people keep asking about.
Just pointing out that there comes a point where people want a toggle for every possible situation and it's going to end up that the entire plugin is one big toggle which detracts from the simplistic approach intended for the plugins. We saturate with too many options as Sic mentioned and people aren't going to have as easy a time getting setup and going because they are going to question if they should have things on, in what situations they would want to use one option over the other etc. A large portion of the users for the plugins just want to be able to load it, glance at a couple of things to consider and fullsend their group member into the jaws of death and expect the plugins to do it's job.

I want to stick to the "expect the plugins to do it's job" portion of things and not keep adding all the toggles. Because going down that road we'll end up with people also wanting conditions for every single option we add to the plugins for toggles. Which is pretty much how we ended up with TLO's so people could write macros that micro manage the plugins. Which, yall can thank Sic for that because I don't do any of the work on the TLO's at all. I'm not opposed to the idea I just don't want to put any effort into it as I feel it starts to get out of scope for the plugins.

This isn't meant to point the finger at any one user, or any group of users that might make a request for options. Just saying that we should keep in mind the original intent of the plugin and try to maintain that. There comes a point where one of the alternative resources might be a better fit for a user if they feel the need to decide each and every ability that's used.
can i get a wall of text toggle? i mean really, need a twitter or so limit! :p

99.9% of the time (100k? mobs and counting) its a champ.. the few request ive seen.. meh, just drive on the char..
 
It's almost as if folk feel that when they're paying a subscription (over and above Level 2), that it's ok to ask questions and perhaps make a request

Weird :shrug:
 
Just because you've paid for a 1 year license to use a product doesn't mean I should add things to the plugins that exceed their intent.
 
neither cwtn or i have issues with requests - we just can't and won't accommodate all of them for reasons that have been articulated a few times.

We get some realllllllllllllly extremely niche requests sometimes. some that would make you scratch your head.

We do what we can, where we can
 
Make Opinionated Software

Your app should take sides

Some people argue software should be agnostic. They say it’s arrogant for developers to limit features or ignore feature requests. They say software should always be as flexible as possible.

We think that’s bullshit. The best software has a vision. The best software takes sides. When someone uses software, they’re not just looking for features, they’re looking for an approach. They’re looking for a vision. Decide what your vision is and run with it.

And remember, if they don’t like your vision there are plenty of other visions out there for people. Don’t go chasing people you’ll never make happy.

A great example is the original wiki design. Ward Cunningham and friends deliberately stripped the wiki of many features that were considered integral to document collaboration in the past. Instead of attributing each change of the document to a certain person, they removed much of the visual representation of ownership. They made the content ego-less and time-less. They decided it wasn’t important who wrote the content or when it was written. And that has made all the difference. This decision fostered a shared sense of community and was a key ingredient in the success of Wikipedia.

Our apps have followed a similar path. They don’t try to be all things to all people. They have an attitude. They seek out customers who are actually partners. They speak to people who share our vision. You’re either on the bus or off the bus.

From "Getting Real" https://basecamp.com/gettingreal
 
So, what you're all saying is, dont bother asking us if something is not obvious but possible because it may annoy us? Got it. Sorry, I am going to keep asking the question cause i want to know how to use the App I pay for. If it makes you all angry, so be it.

Side note: I turned off the stuff to make AE taunt and unending attention stop mashing and it works, but now i cant use my Ultimate stand cause it wont stop turning on courageous defense instantly as soon as I click it off. More learning curve ahead.
 
So, what you're all saying is, dont bother asking us if something is not obvious but possible because it may annoy us? Got it. Sorry, I am going to keep asking the question cause i want to know how to use the App I pay for. If it makes you all angry, so be it

K
 
So, what you're all saying is, dont bother asking us if something is not obvious but possible because it may annoy us? Got it. Sorry, I am going to keep asking the question cause i want to know how to use the App I pay for. If it makes you all angry, so be it.

Side note: I turned off the stuff to make AE taunt and unending attention stop mashing and it works, but now i cant use my Ultimate stand cause it wont stop turning on courageous defense instantly as soon as I click it off. More learning curve ahead.

To be clear, I was articulating the vision of the plugins, and providing some insight in advance of potential questions to inform people of things that will likely, even certainly, be turned down prior to any questions being asked.

This was not a conversation about Myysterio. I'm sorry you chose to take it as a personal attack. Your questions don't make me angry.

side note response: There is no learning curve. You're trying to exceed the scope of the plugins intentions, and while it's possible to manipulate the plugin to do things they weren't specifically designed to do, there's no guarantee it won't have undesired results by doing so. This plugin is designed for automation, and it's trying really hard to do it's job. If it's not using AOE stuff, it's going to try to use something else. If it's not using burn stuff, it's going to use non-burn stuff. The plugin is acting in a manner in which it has been designed.
 
Just to get this thread back on track . . . I have two behaviors that I want to ask about.

1) I am pulling in a new area, that has "vendors" or quest NPCs out in the open area mixed with pullable mobs. I am pulling with bow and arrow. When the war picks one of these vendors or quest NPCs to pull, the war will run over to the range of the bow / arrow, turn on autofire, and wait for the NPC to agro. When I see the war come across one of these types of NPCs, I will manually click the "Ignore Target" button. At this point, the war just stands there and does not return to camp to restart the pull process.

When I am NOT pulling with bow and arrow, just using melee, I believe that the war DOES return to camp and restart the pull process.

2) In the same pull spot, I have tried to use the level limits to try to exclude the vendor / quest NPCs. However, it doesn't seem like the level limits 'dynamically' apply to the pulling process like some of the other pull options, like watch self vs watch healer vs watch group. It seems like I have to change from puller tank to tank and back to puller tank in order for the level limits to apply to the pull process.

Thanks
 
to code for the button just sends the command /war ignore which would do the same thing as you manually punching in the command with something targeted. From what I see of the command, it clears the pull target, stops nav, clears your current target, Forces the ignores to repopulate with the new information, refreshes the window, then exits the function. From what I see in the code, and from testing in game this appears to work as intended. Your use of a bow should have no difference on the outcome of the function that is run when you set something to ignore.

Do you get a message saying the NPC is already on ignore or anything of the sort? That would prevent it from clearing your target, reseting the pulltarget, and restarting the pullroutine.
Returning to camp isn't necessary for the plugin to a find a new target by the way, it can technically just get a new target from where it stands.

There is a minor difference in the way the command handles updating for the change in levelmin/max than the window, but the one for the window actually tries to do more. I do see a situation where it could potentially not update. I'll look into a correction for that and get back to you.
 
Do you get a message saying the NPC is already on ignore or anything of the sort? That would prevent it from clearing your target, reseting the pulltarget, and restarting the pullroutine.

I do not believe I get a message, but I will take a few of them off ignore and revalidate. I will also try to revalidate the melee vs bow scenario.

Thanks
 
So i'm trying to use on project lazarus emulator, and mq2 war zerk both load but they dont do anything. is there something im missing?
 
So the plugin loads up. I can switch zerkers to assist, war to tank but its as if the plugin isnt activating. whena mob is in camp they will not attack the mob
 
So the plugin loads up. I can switch zerkers to assist, war to tank but its as if the plugin isnt activating. whena mob is in camp they will not attack the mob
Are you assigning your ma in your group window so the zerker knows who to assist?
 
hmm that might be it. but what about the war? I set him to tank as well as puller tank and still no melee or puling
 
And you have meshes? It would kick you out of tank / assist mode if u didn't.

Have you adjusted your camp radius to the size you need/want?

What happens if you manually pick the target, does the zerk engage?
 
think it is the meshes. just found it a bit ago, but having troulbe getting it to show the mesh
 
I purchased this and it has been the best thing I have done. It turns my warrior into an unstoppable beast and is very helpful for setting a pulling area on the map. My only request, and sorry if this is the wrong place for this, is if there could be a setting to pull more mobs. If I am PLing some toons in FM, I don't want to go back and pull 1 mob, I want to pull 4 and squash them all.

Thanks again.
 
Plugin - MQ2War

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