Discussion - Caster 6 Box With Constraints - Pal/Dru/Nec + ? (1 Viewer)

[bytebite]

TLDR; (Play what you want) What's the best(strongest) 3 boxes to add to PAL DRU NEC that can do all group content?

Long Form:
I'm messing around on Live but don't know much past level ~80. Goals of the group would just be advancing through content up to live. No real seeking to do old world raids, just missions and group quests/gear. I'm trying to avoid SHD SHM on purpose.

I'd like to make a caster group with the a paladin tank being the only melee (ignoring the required bard) and caster dps focused on necromancers.

My starting point is this: PAL DRU BRD NEC NEC NEC.

Has anyone tried something like this? I'd be using CWTN where available, and Kiss/Mule on DRU BRD until those also become available in CWTN. My questions for those of you with vastly more experience post 80:

1. Would I be better served with replacing 1 necro with something else for a net ADPS increase? Similar to BST+BER*2 >= BER * 3
   • I'd like to avoid another melee but BST seems obvious choice if doing that.
   • At that point, the old suggestion of pet group BST MAG NEC might be best?
2. Can a druid main heal a paladin tank without raid gear on either?
   • I can change to SHM healer and move druid to DPS/ADPS slot instead of a 3rd necro? ~2.5 healers seems excessive but druid+pal feels like it might not be enough based off discord/forums.

Grateful for any advice prior to getting too deep into it. All 6 starting from level 1 without gear.

 

[reefrash]

Enchanter for the CC and buffs keeping it caster.

Im able to keep my sham in hybrid dps mode and together with the druid the heals are great.

My mages put out more damage than any other toon, and the pet tanks better than a real tank (no AOE is all).
Mage with EM29 in pet tank puller mode with kissassist it will send my pet into a pack of 5, gets stunned to heck, brings them all back, and only down 1/4 hp. When my paladin does the same its not pretty. He will make it, but he gets real close to death.

 

[bytebite]

So you are suggesting PAL DRU NEC + ENC SHM MAG ?

Is the pet vs pally tanking caused by group tanking gear and is widespread or is this just anecdotal? I was under the impression a primary knight/warrior tank would outperform a pet pretty handily.

 

[Psy]

DRU likely will not work as main healer. I recommend SHM post 100 and they can keep the PAL or SK up in almost all circumstances. In addition, DRU is mana starved and lacks DPS compared with a SHM so I would consider dropping it all together tbh.

Def want ENC for CC for group content for caster group as opposed to BRD

PAL ENC SHM NEC MAG and any other you like for my 2 red cents. BST might work, but they seem to compliment a DPS crew more than a caster crew, so another NEC or MAG would likely be best. OR, at the risk of being shamed here, think about a WIZ. Their DPS is doing better in recent patches and when maxed AA, their DPS keeps up with my MAG and is now parsing top 10 in our guild raids. Plus you get to add ports. If group content is the goal, then the WIZ will be better at short term dps as well.

 

[bytebite]

I was avoiding ENC originally because I assumed Necromancers do not get nearly as much positive effect off them as Bards.

Does this change post 85 or is the bard net positive not enough taking into account the other classes if not going 3 Necros?

 

[InvisigothMT]

I'm fairly certain that you're going to want a Bard if you have a Necro and/or Mage. In fact Bard is pretty good all around

 

[bytebite]

Would Pal Dru Brd Nec Mag Bst keep enough mana in the druid using BardSongs + Mod Rod + Mind Atrophy + Ascendance + Paragon to offset mana hungriness of Druid?

Just realized, adding extra Necros doesn't increase mana regen of group I think since only 1 buff of Mind Atrophy Recourse can be active at a time and 1 necro can pretty much keep it up forever by 100+?

 

[Psy]

I run both in my crew and the SHM never runs out whereas the DRU does. I would not rely on the DRU for the main healer, especially if you're going to pull on a continuous basis. You'll likely be sitting out for a bit waiting for the DRU to catch up imo

 

[reefrash]

So you are suggesting PAL DRU NEC + ENC SHM MAG ?

ive run that crew and it works really well. Druid is sub optimal as folks have said, but i like the ports n such.
Paladin dps is the suck unless on undead, and then paladin keeps up with my sham in hybrid dps mode.

looking forward to the MQ Druid plugin to see how the toon rocks with some love from the RG devs.

 

[Shadow]

PAL,SHM,BRD,MAG,NEC,NEC works insanely well.

 

[Naeeldar]

Little iffy on running Druid as main healer (I have no experience one class I only level for port bot). Also the Pal will need to be setup to heal which should make druid possible. But I would say this you absolutely want Bard not ench for that group. In my mind you have a couple options:

• Bard+ :
  • 2 Mage
  • 1 mage 1 necro
  • bst/mage
  • bst/necro

I'd probably go brd + 2 mage if looking for best dps. Even in current content, group stuff just dies to fast - least in my caster groups. I do have one necro group option though.

 

[reefrash]

Is the pet vs pally tanking caused by group tanking gear and is widespread or is this just anecdotal? I was under the impression a primary knight/warrior tank would outperform a pet pretty handily.

My paladin subbed paladin gets the beat down in comparison to the Air pet, but has the AOE taunt that is pretty key to a tank.
The EM30 swarm pet cons red and is level 124. Those guys can tank adds like no ones biz, but need to manually drive to do it.

Mage Pet Tank Puller is pretty uber with the enchanter in the group, less issues than with paladin puller for me at this point. Im still working on my setup as well though, so always scanning here for more info from folks.

 

[Vivicide]

I do Warrior Cleric Chanter Mage Mage Mage, and SK Shaman Bard Zerk Zerk Zerk

 

[Knightly]

Paladin has a lot of self-sustain heals and works well with a druid. I feel like the people who tell you not to play a paladin/druid don't really understand how to play those two classes together. I agree that druid can't pump out as much raw healing as a shaman, but that matters more when you have an shadow knight tank than a paladin tank.

Answering the question about an enchanter with a necro -- necro won't benefit from the mana regen, that's true, but your Paladin certainly will. You can run an enchanter and a bard in a group together -- in that scenario I let the enchanter handle CC since they're more efficient at it, and keep the bard on DPS/ADPS. However, if you're looking to go with only things that can support your necro, BST is a good choice too.

Druid and Bard are both versatile classes, so you end up balancing them around what roles you actually need which is a bit of a different play style. Most play styles in EQ are "I'm doing this thing." Even shaman doing hybrid DPS/Heals you don't really change out your spell sets. But druid and bard both you end up choosing what to do based on group composition and the thing you're trying to accomplish.

Coincidentally that makes them slightly harder to automate (and, from a game design perspective, slightly harder to balance). You're trading off versatility for raw X (DPS/Heals). And druids have a mean ADPS for casters that goes really well with Necros (as does their line of hp/mana regen buffs).

That said, if it were me, given the starting point of PAL/DRU/BRD/NEC I'd probably go ENC/MAG. (Well, realistically, I'd probably go MAG/BST and put the ENC on the side...but you know, stick to 6)

 

[timmy]

On the day a new expansion drops, maybe your dru/paladin doesn’t have enough healing to get through the hardest mission. Maybe, but it will probably be fine. And if you just chain wrath over and over on dru, you’ll have mana issues, but if you make prudent choices (or your ini does) you can use wrath and winds to great effect w/o compromising your mana pool.

Knightly’s proposed group would be ideal to stoke the unholy fires of nec dps, as well as do all group content/quests with all the ease double invis, selo’s, ports, and coth contribute.

 

[Szazor]

I'd definitely go ENC over BRD for a caster group that was starting at lvl 1 and progressing together and remember early game the Druid really shines as a healing class. It doesnt start to suffer from Mana issues until 100+

PAL, DRU, ENC, NEC, MAG, MAG would be an awesome fun group. I'm trying to think of any content that you couldnt do with this group setup - and I cant really think of anything.

 

[InvisigothMT]

In my admittedly limited amount of shuffling characters for aDPS it's usually SHM and ENC that define the split between caster vs melee groups. I go Tank-> BRD-> ~SHM or ENC ~ just depending on how you're gonna split. If you're going for a pet heavy group I can't say though

 

[bytebite]

Thank you all for the input. I'm going to try @Knightly 's suggestion and go with PAL DRU BRD ENC MAG NEC.

Reasoning being, I don't think setting bard up for CC + Debuffs + ADPS is going to be viable (1/2 joking: at least prior to CWTN). I'll probably set it up initially with these roles:

PAL: Tank > Heals
DRU: Heals > ADPS (fire +wolf)
ENC: CC > debuffs > ADPS (IoG + Mana Reiterate line?) > dps
BRD: ADPS (dots Fierce Eye + Epic? + Aura) > Personal DPS
NEC: DPS > utility (Mana tap + res)
MAG: DPS > utility (Off tank + rods)

Morph from there as I can. Weak points I'm expecting are Druid healing and splitting DD on Mage with Dots from Necro for 2 primary dps.

I will hopefully report back in a week or two.

 

[reefrash]

Nice! Good luck, that crew should be solid.

 

[Butterface]

I never realized how much DPS my ENC added via MAG. Beguiler's Synergy Focus AA I have to assume is the main reason. I was subbing in a different toon than my ENC On Door Closes and couldn't figure out why my MAG loses ~300k dps without ENC spamming Mindslash type spells. 800-900k dps without ENC, 1.2M DPS with ENC. Pretty noticeable difference.

 

[Vrakenor]

I am no expert to say the least. But I do run an ENC (with CWTN) in my caster group. I have to say that I have gotten so much more fun out of watching my ENC literally kicking ass all over the place than anything previous to getting CWTN. I am serious here. With CWTN MQ2ENC, she can not only lock down a group of mobs, but charm one and attack, slow, Dot, nuke and keep remezzing. I just sit and watch her til the fight is over. Truly amazing. I have 2 healers in the group and the DRU healing is kind of a waste since the ENC does such a good job. So my vote is for a CWTN ENC.

Everyone here talking about Druids and mana are correct. Mine is the MOST mana hungry of a group of casters. Good for about 3-4 decent size pulls and then have to sit for a minute to catch back up to the rest in mana. I don't really do too much healing with him, just some emergency stuff and regen. I have him mostly doing DPS with his Dots, which work really well, they are just very costly on the mana. But I gotta say, I really like the ports and succor comes in real handy sometimes. So altogether worth having in a group.

Vrak

 

[Psy]

Sounds like a solid fun choice and following Knightly's advice is probably quite wise. While many of us have opinions and/or views on ideal teams, I feel like the devs/mods here have a unique view and significantly more experience than most and are likely the best source of information.

 

[bytebite]

TLDR: Are there any alternative group wide gearing paths post defiant than Mark of Valor missions or are the others all camping traditional era equivalent content like say SoD Group armor drops?

Long Version.
I'm ~85. I started with the suggested classes with PAL DRU ENC BRD NEC MAG but the Mag was so much of a focus that I ended up changing him out for a second necro to let the Bard focus entirely on Necro ADPS/Support and am now Pal Dru Enc Brd Nec Nec.

I've only died a couple times to Blood Magic use while being nearly naked dropping my HPs into the danger zone and getting agro.

It is going ok. I'm having some trouble figuring out gearing going forward now that I'm out of defiant. I've read to do HAs for Marks of Valor to gear them easily but I tried one round and it was very slow going.

As I was warned, the druid is a very slow healer but hopefully he gets a bit better in the next ~35 levels.

 

[Vrakenor]

bytebite

You might want to look into the armor that you can buy at 75 from PoT. You have do some 3 preliminary quests to qualify for it but they 1. give amazing exp and 2. are pretty easy to accomplish. You buy the gear from vendors for Remnants of Tranquility which you can earn from missions or better yet you can buy in the Bazaar or even advertise to buy in General chat. You can upgrade this armor every five levels until level 105. It is not the best armor out of what is available out there but it is like defiant in that it is good enough to get you through these levels. BTW you upgrade by buying different type 5 and type 9 augs and replacing the previous level ones. Pretty easy BUT the downside is the time it takes to do the upgrades. If you don't like repetitive clicking then this armor is not for you. I just did the upgrade for level 100 and I timed it. Now I am not the fastest clicker in the world ok? But it took just over 4 hours to get all 6 toons upgraded. Do some research and have a good idea for what stats you want for each toon and make a spreadsheet for better organization. I know for a fact that I have gotten to the point where I dread the upgrade.

Anyways just my 2 coppers.

Vrak

 

[Shadow]

bytebite

You might want to look into the armor that you can buy at 75 from PoT. You have do some 3 preliminary quests to qualify for it but they 1. give amazing exp and 2. are pretty easy to accomplish. You buy the gear from vendors for Remnants of Tranquility which you can earn from missions or better yet you can buy in the Bazaar or even advertise to buy in General chat. You can upgrade this armor every five levels until level 105. It is not the best armor out of what is available out there but it is like defiant in that it is good enough to get you through these levels. BTW you upgrade by buying different type 5 and type 9 augs and replacing the previous level ones. Pretty easy BUT the downside is the time it takes to do the upgrades. If you don't like repetitive clicking then this armor is not for you. I just did the upgrade for level 100 and I timed it. Now I am not the fastest clicker in the world ok? But it took just over 4 hours to get all 6 toons upgraded. Do some research and have a good idea for what stats you want for each toon and make a spreadsheet for better organization. I know for a fact that I have gotten to the point where I dread the upgrade.

Anyways just my 2 coppers.

Vrak

This is a good option for starter gear at those levels, but bear in mind it gets REALLY DAMN expensive quickly. The higher you go, the costs are not worth it IMHO in the long run. I have been there, done that, on multiple groups of toons. 85-100 is also a really grey, dark time for gear IMHO unless on Test where gear is routinely copied over.

HoT zones are great to level those toons, BUT, you need the gear from the UF expansion to not be one-shot by those HoT mobs as the Defiant will not cut it. They hit hard.

Abstruse or Rustic gear might be in the BAZ, or if you can get your hands on some HH Glowing Reis (solid gear right there) you will be set. You can also farm Gribbles and Skulk(?) missions for Marks of Valor until your eyes bleed and get the Lucid gear at 90. I know you said, you don't want to do that...but...

The Gribbles are easier than Skulk's by far. I made massive modifications to the NAV meshes for those zones but lost them when I switched to my new computer and didn't have the heart/desire to revist them. It sucks, but it is the best way if you need gear.

 

[WiseTrapper]

Paladin has a lot of self-sustain heals and works well with a druid. I feel like the people who tell you not to play a paladin/druid don't really understand how to play those two classes together. I agree that druid can't pump out as much raw healing as a shaman, but that matters more when you have an shadow knight tank than a paladin tank.

Answering the question about an enchanter with a necro -- necro won't benefit from the mana regen, that's true, but your Paladin certainly will. You can run an enchanter and a bard in a group together -- in that scenario I let the enchanter handle CC since they're more efficient at it, and keep the bard on DPS/ADPS. However, if you're looking to go with only things that can support your necro, BST is a good choice too.

Druid and Bard are both versatile classes, so you end up balancing them around what roles you actually need which is a bit of a different play style. Most play styles in EQ are "I'm doing this thing." Even shaman doing hybrid DPS/Heals you don't really change out your spell sets. But druid and bard both you end up choosing what to do based on group composition and the thing you're trying to accomplish.

Coincidentally that makes them slightly harder to automate (and, from a game design perspective, slightly harder to balance). You're trading off versatility for raw X (DPS/Heals). And druids have a mean ADPS for casters that goes really well with Necros (as does their line of hp/mana regen buffs).

That said, if it were me, given the starting point of PAL/DRU/BRD/NEC I'd probably go ENC/MAG. (Well, realistically, I'd probably go MAG/BST and put the ENC on the side...but you know, stick to 6)

Solid advice on the group - run an enchanter and a cleric both out of group using xtar buffing/healing and put a beastlord in the group in place of the enchanter. I often play with a bard in caster group, but not always.

 

[Grpsmashin]

PAL, DRU, ENC, MAG, NEC, BST

One of the funnest groups ive made in EQ. All great recommendations from everyone here

 

[2ndGoat]

PAL, DRU, ENC, MAG, NEC, BST

One of the funnest groups ive made in EQ. All great recommendations from everyone here

This is almost exactly what I'm working on right now, except swap DRU for SHM because I want the simplicity of CWTN. I'm excited to see how the new crew turns out once it's up and running.

 

[Grpsmashin]

This is almost exactly what I'm working on right now, except swap DRU for SHM because I want the simplicity of CWTN. I'm excited to see how the new crew turns out once it's up and running.

Ive also swapped out the DRU because of healing. the SHM out shines the DRU in this aspect. lower levels i did DRU till about 100. then switched to SHM

Kickass group none the less

 

[reefrash]

Ive also swapped out the DRU because of healing. the SHM out shines the DRU in this aspect. lower levels i did DRU till about 100. then switched to SHM

The druid ends up being a bit of a mana battery for the sham unless KA is tuned. When the sham canabalizes the druid is often pumping out a heal. Looking forward to the CTWN plugin for the druid in DPS mode.

 

[RobRenfro]

If you are married to Pally Druid Necro I would add Shaman for more healing buffs, dps and Rez, BST for dps and Mage for DPS. That is what I would run also you have the advantage of some great plugins for most of these classes should you choose to purchase them as I have and recommend highly. Especially the Pally, Necro and Mage for what I suggest.

 

[RobRenfro]

The Druid is going to struggle with mana no matter how well he is gear or what program you use. Whereas the Shaman will not. You are almost better suited having a Merc heal your Pally that is what I do at level 120 in most situations even with a 120 Cleric I spent 35m in augs to make sure he doesn't ever run out of mana. Just my personal experience.

 

[bytebite]

If you are married to Pally Druid Necro I would add Shaman for more healing buffs, dps and Rez, BST for dps and Mage for DPS. That is what I would run also you have the advantage of some great plugins for most of these classes should you choose to purchase them as I have and recommend highly. Especially the Pally, Necro and Mage for what I suggest.

I am married to PAL/DRU/NEC but also am avoiding SHM on purpose. They take over just like the mage did because they are so good at what they are for.

I realize I'm limiting to not the best but the play what you love aspect here is the PAL/NEC/DRU and I am trying to support them without sidelining them the way a SHM or MAG would if they were present.

I'm ~90 now, after some Terror Infused armor drops and Abstruse in HoT. I haven't tested since getting 86+ spells but mana peaked up at this level at over a consistent ~450+ mana per tick mid combat even without Death Bloom or Blood Magic use. Turned those off cause I was dying because of naked necros with only 10-15k hps.

Druid is doing fine on mana, even with 2 dots, aa debuffs, snare, group buffs and being primary healer. As long as I don't turn on DD.

 

[RobRenfro]

If you don't want a Shaman or Mage I would advise not abandoning the necro. they can be dps machines. You might consider a Rogue for dps. if you plan on fighting humaniods they are deadly. Plus they really don't need gear, just weapons. If you are on a Budget a Rogue is a great option. I am running a group right now with a Pally/ Healer Merc Necro / DPS Merc Mage and Rogue and it's pretty balanced to be honest.
at the end of the day do what is most fun for you. If you already kinda know, then go with it. What is the worst that happens? You end up with some extra high level toons.

I can tell you from someone with 3 groups of 120s Your tank has to have the best gear and weapons, casters get top gear and dps get top weapons. That is kinda how I approach spending. If you roll a Bard you are going to want to treat him like a tank. Top weapons and top armor. You might even want to get his 2.0. So there is a big investment of time and currency in a Bard as compared to most other toons.

 

[bytebite]

If you don't want a Shaman or Mage I would advise not abandoning the necro.

It's the opposite. I am avoiding the Shaman and Mage precisely to avoid abandoning/sidelining the necros and druids. The original question on this winding thread of support and advice I am most grateful for was: What Support to add to PAL/DRU/NEC. I kind of morphed a bit of each and am focused entirely on ADPS for necros and magic/fire dots since DRU/NEC/ENC all share those.

Thanks everyone. I'll report back how my experiment is going for myself at least at ~110. Got over the 85 hump at least after some gearing.

 

[RobRenfro]

May I ask what you are using with the Druid? Most folks I know have run into mana trouble. I think it's great that you haven't. You may have figured out something pretty beneficial to quite a few people. Have you considered a Wizard? That would seem to fit in line with what you want to accomplish? Not Fire Dots but fire DD. So you could keep focus on the Fire line of DPS. I know you don't want more melee but the Zerker also has something in the fire line. Good luck building your crew.

 

[bytebite]

I think I've seen several times the people saying the mana problems are largely because of the group healing spells (paladin does really well here) and DDs on top which I'm not doing.

Add in a massive mana regen focus from Bard, Enchanter, and Necro and he stays at full.

Its a work in progress though getting the Twinheal DD and Remote heals working. He's basically a very poor cleric that gives a good wolf buff.

When do the mana problems normally kick in? I'm coming up on 95 now.

 

[durango773]

I think I've seen several times the people saying the mana problems are largely because of the group healing spells (paladin does really well here) and DDs on top which I'm not doing.

Add in a massive mana regen focus from Bard, Enchanter, and Necro and he stays at full.

Its a work in progress though getting the Twinheal DD and Remote heals working. He's basically a very poor cleric that gives a good wolf buff.

When do the mana problems normally kick in? I'm coming up on 95 now.

So your not seeing modern druid. Modern druids can heal np, and stay FM, np. They are also one of the best DPS in game.. but run oom when DPS's.. thats the druid issue people normally talk about.

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

I play Shadowknight, Magician, Bard, Enchanter, Cleric, and Druid. Even with the cleric to do 95% of the healing I find the Druid is always OOM. To at least partially rectify that I use conditions to try and save the really big mana hogs for either Burns or GOM procs. It seems to help but he is still the most mana constrained while every other character rarely drops below 98%

Cond11=${BurnActive}
Cond14=${Me.Song[Gift of Mana].ID} || ${Me.Song[Gracious Gift of Mana].ID}
Cond15=${Me.Song[Gift of Mana].ID} || ${Me.Song[Gracious Gift of Mana].ID} || ${Me.Song[Gift of Chromatic Haze VI].ID}

DPS15=Nature's Fervid Wrath|98|Cond11
DPS16=Horde of Hyperboreads|98|Cond11
DPS17=Chill of the Arbor Tender|98|Cond11

[GoM]
GoMSHelp=Format - Spell|Target, MA Me or Mob, i.e. Rampaging Servant Rk. II|Mob
GoMSize=4
GoMSpell1=Nature's Fervid Wrath|Mob|Cond14
GoMSpell2=Horde of Hyperboreads|Mob|Cond14
GoMSpell3=Chill of the Arbor Tender|Mob|Cond15
GoMSpell4=Sunshock|Mob|Cond15

 

[bytebite]

My druid is pure healer. Got anything for Twinheal DD or Remote DD use as a heal?

Typing from memory so a rough pseudo config, but I am using something like this to test.

Cond1=!${Me.Song[Twinheal].ID}
Cond2=${Me.TargetOfTarget.PctHPs} < 80
Cond3=${Me.PctMana} > 70 && ${Target.PctHPs} > 80

DPS1=Sundew Blessing|98|Cond1
DPS2=Remote Sunflare|98|Cond2
DPS3=Horde of Scoriea|98|Cond3

Currently Paladin runs out of mana before anyone else, and that takes a long time of fighting with no downtime really. I'm still homesteading it with pullertank though and mounts are still pretty useful.

I'm pretty sure the 'only fire Remote Sunfire when agro target is low hps' isn't quite right. I think the Condition will evaluate when I'm in a healing routine with the tank targeted, and result in a .8 second cast of the 24 sec cooldown DD heal when not really needed but am ironing it out as I can. Next attempt is probably something like ${Me.TargetOfTarget.PctHPs} < 80 && ${Me.TargetOfTarget.ID} == ${MainAssistId} .