Question - 18 Box Setup for Progression

[bb4]

Not sure if this is the right spot for this or not, but seemed most appropriate.

I was thinking about putting together an 18 box setup and trying to progress through old content (probably start in Velious or Luclin era) all the way up to live if possible. Wanted to be able to do both group and raid content. I figure I will probably need to do raid content about an expansion or two behind with only 18, but plan to try to do as much "in era" as possible.

What I'm looking for is suggestions on group/raid composition to most effectively be able to accomplish this. I'm willing to go to 24 if that would allow me to do more. My reasoning behind 18 is that it should allow for easier gear concentration over 24, but still allow for enough toons to accomplish content.

Tanks: I think it makes the most sense to have 1 warrior for MT, 1 Pally for RT, and 1 SK for OTing adds. Maybe a 2nd warrior in case the first drops? Maybe only 2 tanks?

Heals: At least 3 clerics so each group would have 1, but would I need a 4th? Need 1 druid and 1 shaman for buffs/debuffs.

Utility: Need 1 enchanter for buffs, debuffs, mezzing. 1 Bard per group.

This leaves 6 DPS spots assuming only 3 tanks, 3 clerics, 1 druid/shaman/ench, 3 bards.
Caster DPS: Wiz, Mage, Necro - Assume I'd just want to go ahead and have 1 of each and risk having no porter for 1 group
Melee DPS: Monk, Rogue, Zerker, Ranger, Beastlord - This is where it is tough to pick pure DPS over the utility of a ranger or beastlord

Raid setup would look similar to the below.
Tank Group
War
Pal
Bard
Cleric
Enchanter
SK

Melee Group
Bard
Cleric
Shaman
Melee DPS
Melee DPS
Melee DPS

Caster Group
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Wiz
Necro
Mage

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Go up to 24, some raids will be too complicated with just 18 even a few expansions ahead.

You should really have two warrior tanks, they're the only real viable raid tank. If all you plan to do is raids, you'll quickly find your Paladin healing and not tanking and your SK as little more than a tank you use while clearing/DPS on bosses. If you get a raid event with 2 raid bosses at once that need to be simultaneously tanked - SK won't cut it unless you over level him or over gear him.

You need more healers; two clerics per tank group - you don't need a cleric in your dps groups so just reorganize your groups and you'd be fine.

1 bard per group is total overkill - I wouldn't even bring 1 bard on the whole raid but that's just me. Kiss doesn't play them too well and their Adps isn't nearly as useful for casters as it is for melee.


All in all, I think you'd run out of mana healing/dpsing before you could kill any targets in era with your team. Depends on how you gear them, if you're playing on live and you deck them out in Defiant that changes things a bit, you'd probably be able to down some raids in era.

If you plan to do ALL raids in each expansion - you'll need two warrior tanks and you'll need another enchanter and likely more heals/dps. Some raids are just retardedly hard; a lot of NToV you won't be able to complete in era with just 18 - you'd likely have to level your chars to PoP/OoW to complete NToV with just 18. PoP offers its own set of challenges, depends how far you wanna go how hard it will be. Bertoxx will drain your 18box of mana without a doubt. OoW you got Anguish and other raids which would be a major challenge for just 18. All the raids just mentioned would even be tough with 24 imho.

 

[Tovin]

You’re going to end up hitting a wall quite quickly if you are looking to raid with just 18 and not ensure you are 5+ expansions ahead. The earliest expansions, which are primarily tanking a single target, will be quite easy. However, once you start reaching expansions where there are multiple mechanics / mobs or DPS checks, your team won’t be able to handle it. I know this from direct experience — I played on a progression server in a guild where our leader played 20 optimized boxes using custom written code and about 5-10 of us all played 1-6 characters each to supplement him. We really really struggled with many raids that were 1-2 expansions behind even with 40+ characters.

I think the idea is phenomenal and sounds like a ton of fun, but want to ensure you have appropriate expectations on what you will be able to accomplish on the raiding front. That said, here is what I would suggest in terms of group makeup, with 4 groups being infinitely better than 3:

Tank Group:
War War Pal Shd Clr Clr

Melee Group:
Shm Brd Rng Rng Mnk Rog

Caster Group:
Dru Enc Wiz Mag Mag Mag

Explanations:
1) Two clerics ought to be sufficient to keep a warrior up that is geared/leveled/AAed 5-10 levels beyond current content. The power gains here are incredibly significant (except in Underfoot, your tank is going to get murdered in Underfoot even +10 levels and raid geared).
2) If you are a few expansions ahead of content, your melee and casters should be able to survive AE damage and wild rampage with a single healer (Shaman or Druid). You only have 18 slots, so each additional healer you add is going to meaningfully drop your DPS. Don’t double up on healers in melee/caster group.
3) A number of raids require ranged DPS as melee DPS doesn’t work. In these cases, you’ll want rangers instead of monks/rogues. Rangers have versatility that allows you to still contribute meaningfully to ranged fights and not lose half your DPS.
4) Why mages? When you do things with low numbers, fights are going to last longer. Your casters will run out of mana and be useless. The mages pets will be effective in these fights to ensure the caster group is always contributing. Pets also can continue to DPS even when the mage is ducking or running around to comply with an emote. Very reliable. Mage pets are also OP in early EQ.
5) No necros? To get the most out of necros, you really need to do a DOT rotation with well timed burns. This can be really hard to execute on raids, including balance fights (Solteris) and others where you’re constantly changing targets. Avoid the Necro if you can.

There are obviously upsides/downsides with this and alternative setups, but I think this one will give you the best possible chance to be successful on the greatest variety of raids. At some point you’ll hit a wall, and it is probably sooner than you think, but it should be a ton of fun trying.

 

[saar]

in era, you'll be surprised in OOW, with one group or 2 you can do Ture with sub anguish gear. Riftseekers has 2 raid level targets that can be grouped with sub tacvi gear. also in Dragon of norrath goblin dojo can be single and dual grouped in era gear. A few tricks and you can gear a full raid of 24 toons with current gear in Depths of darkhollow only takes a decent tank with anguish gear. There are a lot of options for gearing, every expansion there are easy raids to gear for harder raids in the same expansion. Some raids are extremely difficult for boxing and some require multiple off tanking or CC. with 24 toons you should be able to go through most raids but a few will roadblock you, I boxed 6 toons through base eq till secrets of faydwer only ran into issues with a few raids.

 

[bb4]

Sounds like I should go to 24 based on the responses.

Go up to 24, some raids will be too complicated with just 18 even a few expansions ahead.

You should really have two warrior tanks, they're the only real viable raid tank. If all you plan to do is raids, you'll quickly find your Paladin healing and not tanking and your SK as little more than a tank you use while clearing/DPS on bosses. If you get a raid event with 2 raid bosses at once that need to be simultaneously tanked - SK won't cut it unless you over level him or over gear him.

You need more healers; two clerics per tank group - you don't need a cleric in your dps groups so just reorganize your groups and you'd be fine.

1 bard per group is total overkill - I wouldn't even bring 1 bard on the whole raid but that's just me. Kiss doesn't play them too well and their Adps isn't nearly as useful for casters as it is for melee.


All in all, I think you'd run out of mana healing/dpsing before you could kill any targets in era with your team. Depends on how you gear them, if you're playing on live and you deck them out in Defiant that changes things a bit, you'd probably be able to down some raids in era.

If you plan to do ALL raids in each expansion - you'll need two warrior tanks and you'll need another enchanter and likely more heals/dps. Some raids are just retardedly hard; a lot of NToV you won't be able to complete in era with just 18 - you'd likely have to level your chars to PoP/OoW to complete NToV with just 18. PoP offers its own set of challenges, depends how far you wanna go how hard it will be. Bertoxx will drain your 18box of mana without a doubt. OoW you got Anguish and other raids which would be a major challenge for just 18. All the raids just mentioned would even be tough with 24 imho.

Some very solid advice in here. I was thinking I'd need the second warrior, but it just didn't make a ton of sense without going to 24. The Pally and SK are obviously kinda situational tanks for RT and OTing adds specifically.

The bard bit is a big surprise. I thought their ADPS made them must haves for pretty much every group. I don't currently use KISS to run my bards unless it is in a group setting. I use a few hotkeys for melody on/off, and then manually instruct them to attack. From there, I have some hotkeys to triggers burns using MQ2Events as well as a few holys/downs.

You’re going to end up hitting a wall quite quickly if you are looking to raid with just 18 and not ensure you are 5+ expansions ahead. The earliest expansions, which are primarily tanking a single target, will be quite easy. However, once you start reaching expansions where there are multiple mechanics / mobs or DPS checks, your team won’t be able to handle it. I know this from direct experience — I played on a progression server in a guild where our leader played 20 optimized boxes using custom written code and about 5-10 of us all played 1-6 characters each to supplement him. We really really struggled with many raids that were 1-2 expansions behind even with 40+ characters.

I think the idea is phenomenal and sounds like a ton of fun, but want to ensure you have appropriate expectations on what you will be able to accomplish on the raiding front. That said, here is what I would suggest in terms of group makeup, with 4 groups being infinitely better than 3:

Tank Group:
War War Pal Shd Clr Clr

Melee Group:
Shm Brd Rng Rng Mnk Rog

Caster Group:
Dru Enc Wiz Mag Mag Mag

Explanations:
1) Two clerics ought to be sufficient to keep a warrior up that is geared/leveled/AAed 5-10 levels beyond current content. The power gains here are incredibly significant (except in Underfoot, your tank is going to get murdered in Underfoot even +10 levels and raid geared).
2) If you are a few expansions ahead of content, your melee and casters should be able to survive AE damage and wild rampage with a single healer (Shaman or Druid). You only have 18 slots, so each additional healer you add is going to meaningfully drop your DPS. Don’t double up on healers in melee/caster group.
3) A number of raids require ranged DPS as melee DPS doesn’t work. In these cases, you’ll want rangers instead of monks/rogues. Rangers have versatility that allows you to still contribute meaningfully to ranged fights and not lose half your DPS.
4) Why mages? When you do things with low numbers, fights are going to last longer. Your casters will run out of mana and be useless. The mages pets will be effective in these fights to ensure the caster group is always contributing. Pets also can continue to DPS even when the mage is ducking or running around to comply with an emote. Very reliable. Mage pets are also OP in early EQ.
5) No necros? To get the most out of necros, you really need to do a DOT rotation with well timed burns. This can be really hard to execute on raids, including balance fights (Solteris) and others where you’re constantly changing targets. Avoid the Necro if you can.

There are obviously upsides/downsides with this and alternative setups, but I think this one will give you the best possible chance to be successful on the greatest variety of raids. At some point you’ll hit a wall, and it is probably sooner than you think, but it should be a ton of fun trying.

Appreciate the response. I was hoping to not have to shoot 5+ expansions ahead to complete content. I'd be OK doing maybe 1 or 2, but if it isn't feasible to do as close to in era as possible, then I dunno if I'll be going down this road.

I hadn't thought about all of the caster stuff. I was thinking early (level 70 cap) as I haven't really played a caster much past 75. I've raided almost everything from classic to TBS as a war often with a cleric and bard tagging along. I've done some SOF/SOD/UF/HOT, but not a ton. My wheel house is really up to lvl 75.

in era, you'll be surprised in OOW, with one group or 2 you can do Ture with sub anguish gear. Riftseekers has 2 raid level targets that can be grouped with sub tacvi gear. also in Dragon of norrath goblin dojo can be single and dual grouped in era gear. A few tricks and you can gear a full raid of 24 toons with current gear in Depths of darkhollow only takes a decent tank with anguish gear. There are a lot of options for gearing, every expansion there are easy raids to gear for harder raids in the same expansion. Some raids are extremely difficult for boxing and some require multiple off tanking or CC. with 24 toons you should be able to go through most raids but a few will roadblock you, I boxed 6 toons through base eq till secrets of faydwer only ran into issues with a few raids.

Now this response gets me super excited to try this. You were doing 1 group and seeing how much you could accomplish with this group in era?

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Bards are good ADPS for melee groups but poor ADPS for caster groups. Enchanters are better for caster ADPS. A lot of boxers that I see prefer Bards but I honestly hate the class, I've boxed raids from Rain of Fear onwards and my setup never uses any Bards, but that's strictly because I don't have any melee groups. If I had a melee group I would have a Bard in it because their ADPS makes a huge difference for Berserkers but a much much smaller difference for a group of Wizards/Mages (which is what I use as DPS for all my groups).

If your sole goal is to roll older content I would recommend making as many pet classes as possible for your teams DPS; avoid ADPS because you're not going to be making a "perfect raid". On live servers pets are more OP than they are on Progression, they got nerfed a few times on progression for just this reason. With Necros/Mages you'll fair a lot better against raid targets. Also you get the added benefit of not being so gear dependant this way. Necros also get lots of negative resist check fire dots which make a huge difference until OoW era. Worse comes to worse too if you can't down a target you could always pet wall it down with this setup.

 

[saar]

I had friends in server wide top guilds, so got to learn alot of the encounters and split runs at certain mobs for gear with low numbers. I found some things out myself just testing, my guild could not kill this one boss with 54 and was just sucking so bad. So I ended that raid and took my6box group to that same mob and found a trick that made it so I could farm a mob with no lockout and full loot every kill and only took 30 mins to dual group the named only need 2 clerics and 2 beefy tanks and some melee. I farmed it for 8 hours killing it every 30 mins. I rarely grouped with anyone so it was, ok lets see what I can group today. Can send me and email with era and I can let you know some easy targets just let me know

 

[InvisigothMT]

Bards might not be as good as Enchanters for caster groups but they're hardly poor ADPS. Now I'll be honest that I manually run my Bard since it's been my main for a very long time so I have no idea how a macro might run one but I don't think that you're handicapping yourself by using Bards if you like. After all it's not like it's that hard to level up a replacement chanter if you aren't happy