Religion (1 Viewer)

[BlackObsidian]

I'm afraid that "faith" just doesn't cut it for me. I understand WHY humans feel the need to look for some higher calling but I'm just not one of them... At least not right at this moment in time anyway. Of course things change and people change so who knows what the future holds.

Regarding Constantine/Darnassus I still can't see why he would push for the uniting of old scripts and create a new religion but keep his old one if the new one is so good... If I put together a new car built from pieces of loads of old cars and then told everyone in the world they should love this new car and worship it but then I went around driving a normal old car I'd be a hypocrite and it'd also be VERY likely they I didn't hold a high view of my new creation...

Oh yes and many posts ago I did say that I believe there was a creator (in the beginning!) who created all the laws of the known universe. I just don't believe that he's still around and all seeing, all knowing, caring kinda guy (who incidentally was a complete bastard in the Old Testament!!!)

 

[Creed]

/me complains...

my religion isn't in the poll...and the first post doesn't tell me to post any 'others'...what am I to do...

oh noes...

 

[BlackObsidian]

PM Creed and tell him to add another rule

 

[Siddin]

Well, I think all of those except aethiest would be on the opposite side of the spectrum for me. I'm not posting my religion, but I will say the reactions that you get from people when you do tell them tend to be quite varied. Some are intrigued, some are like wtf?! are you out of your mind?!

LOL

"There are two things that are infinite - The universe, and Human stupidity. I'm not too sure about the universe."
- Albert Einstein

 

[Generel]

Siddin are you a scientologist(sp?). Just wondering, lol.

I have to say though, I really like all the discussion in this thread, a lot of great info and good points, keep it up guys!

 

[RedBema]

PM Creed and tell him to add another rule

Lol, everyone always gets Cade and Creed messed up.

Anyways, Creed could edit the poll himself if he wanted to so that he could add his religion.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Announcement: READ THIS NOW!!! (New Redguides Rules)
02-21-2007 Creed (Here and There (Admin)) .

But the stickies are from Creed :p

 

[Creed]

Lol, everyone always gets Cade and Creed messed up.

Anyways, Creed could edit the poll himself if he wanted to so that he could add his religion.

lol...he was ebing sarcastic Bema...

"Here's your Sign"...

 

[fatal!]

It is my belief Earth was terraformed (created) by an Alien(s). It doesn't matter what religion you choose to follow, if you believe in God, you believe in aliens.

It's fairly simple. Please follow along.

You believe God created the Earth.
If he created Earth, he obviously isn't FROM Earth.
If he is isn't from Earth and he exists, he is an alien.
If God is an alien and God created Earth, Earth was created by an Alien.

Please feel free to let me know what part of this I have wrong as my personal religion does allow me to change my beliefs based on new evidence. I know that may be hard to understand for some folks who base their existance of what is written in a 2000 year old book, but it is the nature of my belief system. I don't believe I know everything and I don't have a strict ruleset I have to try to fit everything in. This allows me to believe things like dinosaurs really did exist and the Earth is older than 8000 years.

 

[Cade]

You believe God created the Earth.
If he created Earth, he obviously isn't FROM Earth.
If he is isn't from Earth and he exists, he is an alien.
If God is an alien and God created Earth, Earth was created by an Alien.

Following the above logic:

If God, an alien, created Earth, he was responsible for our creation. (either directly, meaning he created us, or indirectly, meaning we were created eventually because of what he did).
If we were created by an alien, we are the same as him. When we were created, he was among us.
The definition of 'alien' is 'a foreigner'.
If God was with us always, he is not a foreigner, and thus, not an alien.

 

[fatal!]

Sorry, if he created us, it does not mean we are the same.

I have created multiple things, none of which are the same as me.

I believe you believe God created everything. Using your logic, God created dogs and is therefore a dog himself? I just want to be sure I am understanding your beliefs.

God isn't from Earth, but he isn't an alien.

Everything he created is the same as him, thus we are all Gods.

Let's make it simple.

Did God create Earth from nothingness as the Bible states?
Or did it already exist since he was always with us? If it already existed, he didn't create it. I don't believe I have ever heard a christian state such a thing. Is this new? My understanding of the bible makes it pretty clear that he created Earth. What source are you using to say he didn't?


To clarify, let's say Extra_Terrestial instead of Alien. I am sure you knew what I meant but chose the meaning of foreigner for whatever reason.

 

[Cade]

Strike "If we were created by an alien, we are the same as him." The rest stands.

God, and Earth aren't the same. He was always with us, Earth was not. God created Earth out of nothingness.

When I say "always" I mean since we were created. Sorry for the confusion.

To clarify, let's say Extra_Terrestial instead of Alien. I am sure you knew what I meant but chose the meaning of foreigner for whatever reason.

Extra Terrestials aren't foreign?

P.S. I never said I was Christian, I'm just being argumentative.

 

[fatal!]

Good natured argumentative is a good thing.

I guess we would have to define foreign for me to agree with that. I don't think it is descriptive enough. If you say God is foreign, I could take that to mean you think he is Mexican or Irish.


Ok. So then..

God created Earth so he obviously wasn't from Earth. Like I said, God is an Alien (ET). He may have created us mere Earthlings in his image, but that by no way means we are the same as God. I am not all knowing nor am I all powerful. I believe I am an Earthling, but that could be wrong. We could have been transplanted here. Just because a cat has kittens in the oven , it doesn't make them biscuits.

I am in no way trying to dispute the Bible or Christianity or any other religion that believes in God. I am just trying to show that people wrap their own beliefs in to their religion, whether it is something the bible says or not. The bible never says God is or isn't an alien. The facts of the Bible would indicate he is an Alien but because it was never said in SUnday school, most religious people flat out rule it out.

Why is that? Does God being an alien somehow demean their religion? Does it somehow make them um.. 'touched' because they believe in Aliens? Believe in God all you want. I may or may not. But if I do, I know one thing for sure. He is an Alien (ET), based on the facts provided to man through the Bible which is the inspired word of God.

 

[RedBema]

lol...he was ebing sarcastic Bema...

"Here's your Sign"...

Oh, lol!

I thought he was referring to another "religion" not "rule." Didn't read the last word.

 

[BlackObsidian]

I have to say that I'm really enjoying Fatal!'s arguments, they seem to make a lot of sense and they're just hilarious from where I'm sitting.

I've just been nosing at various proofs of the age of man and it seems to be a tad longer than 8000 years... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens_idaltu

Oh and to the person who gave me a negative RedCent because my belief is different to theirs, I'm sure your God will give you a nice shiny hand-job with some rose-smelling oil for the excellent job you've done... Negative RedCents earn you extra points in the old sucking-up game don't you know?

 

[Cade]

I'd reimburse you, black, but I really don't care.

 

[Creed]

Oh, lol!

I thought he was referring to another "religion" not "rule." Didn't read the last word.

lol...if by "he"...you mean me...i was referring to another religion...

 

[thez]

I don't like the idea of God.

Well, more specifically, I understand the need for a God-figure, in the existentialist sense, but I don't like the idea of there actually being a God-figure up there.

 

[BlackObsidian]

I'd reimburse you, black, but I really don't care.

Whatever Cade, I'm not fussed about whether I have a -RC or not, it's the idea behind the Neg RC that's annoyed me!

What I'm annoyed about is that in a world of (generally!) free-speech someone felt it necessary to -RC me purely because they disagree with what I'm DISCUSSING (becoming a frequent word isn't it?) with other people.

I'd completely understand a negative RedCent if I'd been deliberately baiting religions, taking the piss out of them and generally being disrespectful to people who have chosen a different way of life than me but I wasn't!
I was simply and accurately DISCUSSING religion with other people who also were DISCUSSING religion with me.

You don't see me going around handing out daily -RC's to people just because their view differs from my own because it's their (God-given?) right to have an opinion and in the grand scheme of things I'm a nobody the same as them.

Oh and thanks to the two guys who +RC'd me for this thread, at least I know I'm not the one stepping out of line.

 

[RedBema]

::Redbema goes to see who it was that gave Black a -RC::

 

[Cade]

Whatever Cade, I'm not fussed about whether I have a -RC or not, it's the idea behind the Neg RC that's annoyed me!

What I'm annoyed about is that in a world of (generally!) free-speech someone felt it necessary to -RC me purely because they disagree with what I'm DISCUSSING (becoming a frequent word isn't it?) with other people.

I'd completely understand a negative RedCent if I'd been deliberately baiting religions, taking the piss out of them and generally being disrespectful to people who have chosen a different way of life than me but I wasn't!
I was simply and accurately DISCUSSING religion with other people who also were DISCUSSING religion with me.

You don't see me going around handing out daily -RC's to people just because their view differs from my own because it's their (God-given?) right to have an opinion and in the grand scheme of things I'm a nobody the same as them.

Oh and thanks to the two guys who +RC'd me for this thread, at least I know I'm not the one stepping out of line.

Can't even make an insulting, caustic, and nonfunny joke anymore...

I guess I'll be less subtle next time.

 

[Devlin]

There ya go Sexy, +RC.


PS: My religion is Giraffe.

 

[LadyGator]

My,my, my...

Your kidding right? "Nobody was around..." What about all of the men and women that archeological/historical/evidence have proved were living during "those things." I could sit here and list thousands of proof that people actually did exist during "those things," lol... Josephus for one, is a famous Jewish historian who lived during some of "those things."

Obsidion, please inform me what is "fact" to you. If Scripture isn't, then what is, and why is it?

I am sorry if I may come across sharp, it's just that I hate whenever people speak proudly about religion without having any knowledge of what they are saying. (Speaking against a religion whenever they have no idea what they are arguing against.)

I attended Baptist and Catholic school for many years. I have read the Bible and many scholarly works about it. It is fiction, period. Historical documents out and out contradict the Bible in many places. Josephus spends the vast majority of his writings scoffing at the concept of a Messiah, then there is one Josephus reference to Jesus (one of the many Jesuses he mentioned, its being one of the most common names since it's actually Joshua) being the Messiah, which every credible historical and literary scholar believes to have been added later. If that's not enough, go read ancient Egyptian religious texts and note that they too tell a story of a god becoming man, dying and being reborn, blah blah blah. Same stuff centuries earlier.

I was a very religious person till I actually did my own research, and now I am agnostic. First, I'm not arrogant enough to believe any human being, myself included, is fully able to comprehend the nature and appropriate worship of a Supreme Being, should one exist. Next, not only has every real piece of evidence uncovered disproved the "truth" of the Bible, I also think not following the Bible makes me a more moral person. I am not a child who craves a reward (Heaven) for good behavior or fears punishment (Hell) if I am bad. I try to do the right thing because I believe it's best for society and humankind, and I want to try to make the world a better place.

Flame away, but I have literally spent most of my life studying religious texts, and it's you who haven't done your homework on this.

 

[LadyGator]

Well, there is 66 books of the bible. The bible was written by man, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and is perfect. Therefore, the bible is perfect and without blemish. There are many other books and scrolls that were written at the time the bible was written, but they are not included in the bible because God didnt want them there.

That's funny. Everything I've read indicates what was left out of the Old Testament had to do with power struggles in the Jewish priesthood, and anything not in the New Testament is omitted because the early Christian church decided it was too dangerous to speak spiritual truth to the unwashed masses. Read some historical documentation on the early church councils and how the doctrines people seem to think God handed down from above were argued over like a bill in Congress.

If the Bible is perfect and without blemish, why does it advocate rape and murder? And it does. Lot is supposed to be a holy man, yet he's willing to hand over his virgin daughters to be raped by a mob. And as far as perfect, God sure does have continuity problems, because a few verses later these "virgin" daughters have husbands! The Bible is rife with incidents such as this. Read the ENTIRE BIBLE and don't just pick and choose verses or believe what someone at a pulpit tells you.

If I have to pick a religion, I'd go with, Think For Yourself!! If there is a god, I figure he gave me a brain to use, not just accept whatever doctrine is spoonfed to me as a child.

 

[fatal!]

Preach it, Sister! preach it!

If one studies the evidence and chooses that a certain religion is for them, more power to them. But make up your own mind. Don't be forcefed a religion and just follow it. I followed that path for far too long and eventually realized on my own that the particular religion I was following didn't have the answers I wanted. "Because God says so" or "it is the will of God" were not sufficient for me.

To me, making an educated decision is the definition of Free Will that the Creator is supposed to have given us. To not utilize that free will and make your own decisions would appear to go against want he wanted from us.


Of course, I could be wrong. Strange thing about free will.. sometimes we are wrong.

 

[thez]

Look, I'm not one to accuse Christianity of borrowing things from other religions, but if you are interested in one of my favorite "similarities" between a Christian story and another religion, take a look at Mithras.

"Mithras is mentioned in passing as the god who originally had the December 25th birthday, before it was appropriated by some Christians. This notion is held due to the testimony of Plutarch, which presents the December 25th birthday as originating in the 1st century BC."

And more specifically, Mithraism

Bull and cave themes are found in Christian shrines dedicated to the archangel Michael, who, after the legalization of Christianity, became the patron Saint of soldiers. Many of those shrines were converted Mithraea, for instance the sacred cavern at Monte Gargano in Apulia, refounded in 493. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Mithraism was transferred to the previously unvenerated archangel.

Mithraism's flood at the beginning of history was deemed necessary because what began in water would end in fire, according to Mithraic eschatology. Both religions believed in revelation as key to their doctrine. Both awaited the last judgment and resurrection of the dead.

Speaking of floods, did you know that the "flood myth" is one of the most common type of religious stories found in any religion? It's found in almost every major religion...it's even found in the oldest known book, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Link to wiki

Gilgamesh's supposed historical reign is believed to have been approximately 3000 BC, 400 years prior to the earliest known written stories. The discovery of artifacts associated with Agga and Enmebaragesi of Kish, two other kings named in the stories, has lent credibility to the historical existence of Gilgamesh.

From the epic itself:

Tear down your house, I say, and build a boat. These are the measurements of the barque as you shall build her: let her beam equal her length, let her deck be roofed like the vault that covers the abyss; then take up into the boat the seed of all living creatures.

"For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and temptest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When theseventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled..."

Honestly, I'm not really interested in causing trouble, I'm just trying to point out that the Christians borrowed from other sources. I can't remember if it was Mithras or another god that had an identical story to the birth and death of Jesus Christ, so I'll leave that out.

That said, to claim that bibilical stories are based on fact is foolishness. But just because they aren't necessarily based on fact, or original, does not decrease their value to the Christians. They provide a strong system of belief for people to rely on. As Marx said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." More to the point, the truthfulness of the stories held within the text is not the issue, it's whether or not you can accept the ideas that they are intended to convey.

 

[fatal!]

Just to expand on what Thez is saying.

As the roman empire (and others) grew, they found that they couldn't just replace whatever the local religion was. In order for these newly 'acquired' people to accept the religion they started making changes. "Oh yes, we believe in that God. But in our religion he servers our God, he is the patron saint of XXX".

It is how some religions came to have 12 gods. No matter who the local god was, they would say "Oh yes, we have him, does he sounds just like our god Zeus" or whatever the case may be. It was politics. The religions were changed to meet the needs of the rulers of the time in order to keep the citizens in line.

The same thing still happens today.


If you look in to the Sumerian texts that have been translated, you will absolutely see that a lot of the old testament was written their first, with small changes. Little things like "In the beginning their were gods". Somewhere along the way the s was dropped. If the old Testament still read that way, some parts of it wouldn't support 'modern' religions though.

If you are really interested in the topic, I would highly recommend reading the works of Zecharia Sitchin. Be warned though, he calls God an alien.

 

[Devlin]

Why do people fight over religion and the such, when God never asked ANYONE to be a "Christian","Buddhist","Mormon", etc.


But for people to be Disciples?

 

[fatal!]

Everyone wants to be the biggest bully on the block. Even before it became fashionable for there to be only one true God, people were killing each other over whose god was bigger. My God can beat up your god.

*This is purely historical because that kind of stuff couldn't be happening today..

 

[Ccomp5950]

[Sarcasm]
I'm going to go cry now in a corner because your lack of faith somehow invalidates my faith!

I truely hope you are all happy now.
[/Sarcasm]

 

[alucard]

Why do people fight over religion and the such, when God never asked ANYONE to be a "Christian","Buddhist","Mormon", etc.


But for people to be Disciples?

People do not necessary follow a certain faith because God told them to follow that belief, they do so because they do believe it.

 

[Roguish]

I'd like to build even further on what Thez and others were describing about Christianity borrowing from Mithraism and other pagan and pseudo-pagan religions prior to Anno Domini.

In 325 AD Constantine's, the Roman Emperor of the time, mother was Christian. Constantine's goal was to unite the whole world under Roman rule. Christianity 300 years after the death of Jesus was not a popular way of life and they were still being persecuted by the orthodox Jews. In 325 the COuncil of Nicea took place. This was round table of sorts for Rome to decide what the official religion of Rome would be and they decided on Christianity. On this day they even found out there was a series of writings that these Christians held dear and they proceeded to take a vote on which books would make the Bible and which wouldn't.

To make this long story short and the subject pertinent to Thez's comments I need only mention that this new religion created by Rome in 325 AD was no the Christianity of the day before, or a century before, or even of today. Constantine and his commitee had to merge Christianity with Judaism, with Mithraism and other bull worshipping groups, with Druidism and other sun wathcing sects, that is why all the holidays may have Christian backgrounds but are celebrated on pagan dates. If you look at the Catholic calander of holy days including even the Saint's days you will see that there are tons and tons of dates there, that's because almost every celebration that has ever been celebrated at a particular time is on that calandar under a different guise.

I am not sacking Christianity per-say, I'm just trying to clarify the history aspect. At one time there was a real Christianity and at all times throughout history there has been a very very small number of people, sometimes just one single family carring this original christianity to the next generation but now in this modern world of internet and religious freedom more and more people are leaving the religious institutions behind and learning little by little what it really was.

 

[BlackObsidian]

The pro-religion arguments have been lacking of late, are you all busy or do you have your fingers in your ears?

 

[KeithClancy]

The pro-religion arguments have been lacking of late, are you all busy or do you have your fingers in your ears?

baby jesus cured my ocular herpes

In all seriousness, one of my only regrets in life is that I wasted as much time as I did in a church pew. I even went to a christian university in mid-west Texas. It's amazing how clear things actually get when you step back out of your blinders and research things with an open mind. In all the thousands of christians I've had the pleasure of knowing over the years, none of them have retained their faith after a (genuine) close look at what they call their own faith. Most christians are too enamored with their fantasia to give things a serious look. Honestly though ... I could care less. I've never tried to break anyone's faith nor do I care to. Faith is society's pacifier. I could care less what people need to sleep easily at night.

The ideals that drive the roots of christianity are wonderful. The teachings of Jesus, even to a non-christian are a blessing ... which is more than I can say for some 'faiths'.

I'm a born again Christian turned agnostic. The only thing I miss are the people ... it was nice to have the social connections. Sadly, I'm no longer accepted in their circles. Apparently my disbelief in God and views on subjects such as evolution (and other sundries) are not compatible with their standards.

 

[BlackObsidian]

*have cat*

*have pigeons*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6397373.stm

*puts cat amongst the pigeons*

 

[Ccomp5950]

I tend to throw out what I believe and if you reject it, then it's none of my business.

Like I alluded in a comment I made earlier, my faith does not hinge on your ability to accept it.

That and I find arguing on the internet to be lame.

I do find it interesting that people do feel the need to go one and on about it though, and it's not just a need that is limited to skeptics out to try and "prove" Christianity wrong (when by their own admission it cannot be proven either way), but falls upon Christians as well.

If you don't believe, that's all fine and dandy, for your own sake I hope I'm wrong.

 

[BlackObsidian]

dis·cus·sion (dĭ-skŭsh'ən)
Pronunciation Key
n.
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

I think we've already established that there is no way to "prove" one way or another, however just because that's the case it doesn't immediately make discussing the topic defunct now does it?

By using our (God-given?) minds to THINK and DISCUSS the endless possibilities of our lives, whether it be religion, science, the paranormal or whatever we're making use of the tools we have been given, thus no harm will befall us if indeed the pearly gates exist.

On the flipside you've got it good anyway because if you're right you get big huggles and kissies from "Da Man" (as I affectionately refer to him!) himself and if you're wrong it's irrelevant anyway because you'll never know, you'll just cease to exist.

Win-win situation, bargain!

 

[Ccomp5950]

However you've already stated that you require a certain level of proof for your mind to change.

We've come to the conclusion that this will not happen.

Hense, discussion is fruitless from my point of view.

New subject, how many fairies can dance on the end of a pin?

 

[CraztoPod]

met·a·lan·guage [ méttə làng gwij ] noun

Definition:

language used to describe language: a language or system of symbols used to describe or analyze another language or system of symbols

The concept of Metalanguage states, basically, that in order to rationally discuss a language, one must first construct a "super-language" which describes the subject language. and the terms of which, everyone agrees upon. Else, none of the words communicate anything.

The idea, although mebbe not the philosophy behind it, is well known to programmers who have heirarchies of languages, [machine code, assembly, C, Javascript], each of which is adequate to make use of the immediate lower order langage.

This discussion reminds me of a collage of programmers, each of which is intimate with his/her own language, discussing the idea of programming. People who learned Algol probably don't understand C++, and the Fortran and Basic guys are deer lost in the headlights when the Javascripters get swinging.

Folks, before any rational discussion is possible, you must first construct a "Meta-language" for religion. Else, the faithful, the skeptics, the disbelievers and the "Who? Me?'s" will each have what I call competetive monologues.

May I invite each of the contributors herein to join my guild?

 

[BlackObsidian]

However you've already stated that you require a certain level of proof for your mind to change.

We've come to the conclusion that this will not happen.

Hense, discussion is fruitless from my point of view.

New subject, how many fairies can dance on the end of a pin?

Reading this word for word you're effectively saying, "It's not worth talking about because I have no way of changing your mind without proof."?

Now who is trying to convert people?

Religion in general to me doesn't even enter my head throughout 95% of my life.

The only time it comes-up is when I see the insanity of our world based upon religion. When I see children being mentally abused in the US by fucked-up "pastors" who are trying to "build an army of God" or when I see 8 year old children running through the streets with AK47's because their parents have forced their own beliefs upon the children.

The day I see the entirety of a specific religion all (no pun intended!) singing from the same sheet I'll be happy to withdraw my stance on organised religion. Until that day I will be happy to discuss religion's shortcomings with anybody who wants to discuss it back; people like Bema and Archy who seem to have become rather busy of late.

Oh and I don't believe in fairies... Not without proof! hehehe