Macros/Plugins etc Paid moving forward question

[BigDorf]

I think it has been about 2 weeks since I started using VV/MQ2.

Noticed there has been a push of VV update a few hours ago and so have applied it, and then set about launching MQ2 and loading the characters.
An error box pops up for each character:

mq2cleric.dll -- it is out of date with respect to mq2main (1593295187 > 1592754363)

An investigation shows, the dll file did not download in the new pack. Where new files are dated June 27, this mq2cleric.dll remains as June 21.
Checking these forums, I find that MQ2Cleric is now on 1 year license pay for plugin, no longer available for use freely with VV.

KissAssist has been helpful with other classes. When i look at the cleric KA file, I smile as it was basic, date stamped two weeks ago. Used only as I followed the redguides videos to learn how to control two characters, with tank and healer (that battles!). For the majority of these two weeks, MQ2Cleric has been doing the work, with one less KA profile to worry about updating and doing a fine job in supporting the group through some levels. It has been great while it lasted, hence I call it out as the end of a short era.

 

[VorpalChicken]

Thems the breaks, I know CWTN and his team of gnome coders work hard on these plugins, and to be honest they are excellent plugins and well worth the pittance you pay for them!

 

[MrPatate]

yep, they are so easy to use and so powerfull, it s really worth paying for them.

 

[Knightly]

End of the era of free maybe, but you could still purchase it if it saves you time configuring your toons. If you're looking for low configuration there's also IHC https://www.redguides.com/community/resources/ihcmercs-now-supporting-all-classes.1013/

I actually really enjoy customizing my characters.

 

[BigDorf]

My intent was to highlight that MQ2Cleric has been removed from the base build of VV.
It is not mentioned in the June 27 patch notes, and then to see the dll out of date message when launched MQ2, wondered what had gone wrong and why.
I was looking to ensure the news was out there, not covered in the patch notes of the change of status.

@VorpalChicken I dont doubt for a moment there has been lots of work gone into plugins, macros etc. so in that I agree with you. Although what some may call a pitance others may disagree.

@Knightly I hadnt heard of IHC before, thanks for the link. From a quick look, I take it as an alternative macro to KissAssist.

 

[godsfshrmn]

KA does pretty well with heals - I'll probably go back to that. CTWN's macros work pretty dang well so they're a definite nice to have but I can't justify 6 subs, level 2 sub, and 4 plugin subs

 

[Dethbrngr]

Now before you start flaming on me, I have bought 3 of CWTN Plugins and will likely buy MQ2Cleric too. I am just wondering if this is the movement going forward for plugins and macros? Is KissAssist next? This is getting back to Devastator days. I see this site becoming paid macros. I know a LOT of work goes into these macros and yes you maintain them. I myself appreciate all the hard work because I don't even know where to start. However, there never used to be paid macros/plugins before.

I merely started this thread as a conversation starter to get everyones thoughts and input.

/flame away

 

[lilwizzie]

There are plenty of included (free) macros and plugins available with the basic subscription. The paid items are over and above and optional, and generally worth the price but it's left up to you to decide. Particularly with the CWTN plugins, they are available to try for free on test.

 

[Synestar359]

"If you're good at something, never do it for free" - the Joker.
There is a lot that I have found free on this site that has helped me greatly. CWTN plugins are really advanced and likely require lots of coding/testing/patching. So I do not mind paying extra for them at all.

 

[Dethbrngr]

So clearly you are not reading my post. Im not flaming at CWTN or his plugins. I am asking if this is the way moving forward and do we foresee KA and IHC etc moving to this? Please read and understand the post before responding.

 

[dannuic]

No, I don't think this will become the norm.

 

[Sic]

My intent was to highlight that MQ2Cleric has been removed from the base build of VV.
It is not mentioned in the June 27 patch notes, and then to see the dll out of date message when launched MQ2, wondered what had gone wrong and why.
I was looking to ensure the news was out there, not covered in the patch notes of the change of status.

@VorpalChicken I dont doubt for a moment there has been lots of work gone into plugins, macros etc. so in that I agree with you. Although what some may call a pitance others may disagree.

@Knightly I hadnt heard of IHC before, thanks for the link. From a quick look, I take it as an alternative macro to KissAssist.

Unfortunately, when a resource (like mq2cleric in this case) goes from beta to release, the RG launcher doesn't have the ability to delete the old file.

re: no notice, chat did post in the cleric thread that it would be scheduled to be a paid resource next live build of VV.


the plugins are available free to use with your RG lvl 2 on both the test server, and emu servers, and has been free to use on a live server for about the past 6 months while in development.

 

[Sum1]

It’s a fair question and an interesting conversation to have.

 

[Sic]

"If you're good at something, never do it for free" - the Joker.
There is a lot that I have found free on this site that has helped me greatly. CWTN plugins are really advanced and likely require lots of coding/testing/patching. So I do not mind paying extra for them at all.

they don't require any more or any less than any of the other work here. Chat has just decided to monetize his work and efforts

 

[wymranar]

@BigDorf try @Sic ’s cleric ini for KA. It’s amazing and I don’t think I’ve ever died for a lack of healing

 

[Sic]

Now before you start flaming on me, I have bought 3 of CWTN Plugins and will likely buy MQ2Cleric too. I am just wondering if this is the movement going forward for plugins and macros? Is KissAssist next? This is getting back to Devastator days. I see this site becoming paid macros. I know a LOT of work goes into these macros and yes you maintain them. I myself appreciate all the hard work because I don't even know where to start. However, there never used to be paid macros/plugins before.

I merely started this thread as a conversation starter to get everyones thoughts and input.

/flame away

RedGuides owns kissassist - so outside of your lvl2, i don't think Red plans on having kissassist be something separately paid for.

I can't speak for RG or IHC re IHC, but that I'm aware there are no such plans with IHC to put them behind a paywall.

There are still plenty of new stuff that has been free - overseer.mac, my 3 plugins mq2status, mq2relocate, and mq2tstrophy, dr whomp's awesome mq2react.

There have also been paid resources around for several years, publicly or privately.

 

[Zebadiah]

To tell the truth Dethbrngr I am on the fence with this. As I see it there is going to be a split at some point between what is "Free" and what is paid. The folks that are learning how to box will still need things to get started as setup and getting a group running. To get your feet wet so to say. Then as confidence and skills get better and need becomes greater to do things in the game folks will start looking at what is paid. This is where the split will come. The paid stuff is miles above what the beginner has to work with.

Looking at the difference between what is available and what is paid, folks will go to what they can afford. If they can only afford the game and its expansion and nothing for the Paid stuff then they will use what is available. /If ${Me.Funds[Onhand]} && {Target.Price.Cost} /notreadytobuy (trying to learn how to make conditions.)

The problem that will come is the upkeep of the free stuff vs the upkeep of what is paid. Will the free to use stuff keep current with what is Paided for to keep folks interested and move to what is paid. Also the newer programmer folks that have contributed to the free stuff and see that paid is more lucrative and begin to code their stuff so they can Sell it as well.

What I see happening is (IMO) that their will be a few free stuff for folks to get a taste of getting up and running a group and then if you want to become better its either go paid or write your own stuff.

 

[Sum1]

IMO, stop making them available for use during development. Being a free resource so that the community can help debug, provide input, and generally allow for the an effective development cycle and then shifting the resource to paid after getting that free input isn’t something I would generally agree with. That’s my opinion, but I’ll say that I’ve personally paid for three (-ish) of the plugins myself, including for mq2bst after I used it for free for less than a month and then one day after patching saw to paid. I wasn’t happy with that, but *shrug*

 

[Magidragoon]

Is it possible to see a bundle deal? Three for two or something.

 

[Sum1]

IMO, stop making them available for use during development. Being a free resource so that the community can help debug, provide input, and generally allow for the an effective development cycle and then shifting the resource to paid after getting that free input isn’t something I would generally agree with.

That’s my opinion, but I’ll say that I’ve personally paid for three (-ish) of the plugins myself, including for mq2bst after I used it for free for less than a month and then one day after patching saw to go to paid. I wasn’t happy with that, but *shrug*

 

[Sic]

IMO, stop making them available for use during development. Being a free resource so that the community can help debug, provide input, and generally allow for the an effective development cycle and then shifting the resource to paid after getting that free input isn’t something I would generally agree with. That’s my opinion, but I’ll say that I’ve personally paid for three (-ish) of the plugins myself, including for mq2bst after I used it for free for less than a month and then one day after patching saw to paid. I wasn’t happy with that, but *shrug*

well that's your opinion that you're entitled to.

if it was up to me, personally. no one would ever hear about them until they are ready for release - but its not up to me. folks want to use them and try them out, and that is something that Chat and Red have worked out. You have mentioned that before, and I'm sorry you feel that way. No one is asked to use them, I go out of my way to ensure i give other suggestions to folks depending on what they're looking for - if *you* don't like them or have issue with them, don't use them.

 

[eqtrader74]

Paid plugins are still overall new on RG, but I would say they've stabilized some developer interest. One issue with open-source stuff is you can get Devs who get busy in real life or just lose interest, then the project breaks after an EQ update and you have to wait to see if anybody will try to fix it. The Auto-macro's were great and free, but we saw a lot of users asking for help or just suffering with broken errors for months when the Dev is busy. IHC's set also languished for a bit until new Devs starting fixing them.

I could be way off base on my info here, but, I think KA development is supported via RedGuides (RedBot) directly so no incentive to make that paid. Also tends to get patched for major problems very fast.

Chat's stuff has been very solid on both updates and function. In general you're getting massive out-performace of free KA for the classes he supports. There are certainly group setups or such where the customization of KA is better, but I've never been able to put out MQ2Berserker DPS with my own custom zerker ini that tries to match the old IHC system (Chat's starting point a longtime ago.)

I personally would love to see bundle pricing for Dev's that do multi-system macros/plugins. IE pay for 4 and get everything they make for a year, something like that, but it's really up to the Dev on what works for their time investment.

 

[wymranar]

I think you can easily accomplish anything in game with access to just KA and IHC. KA is the only thing I use.

 

[Zebadiah]

Please don't misunderstand me. I hold CWTN and Sic in very high reguards. They both have helped me to the level that I needed and let me progress and develop on my own with an occasional nudge in the right direction. With that said the question in my mind is what happens when the year is over. Can you still use the plugin with out any updates or does the plugin just stop working until you buy it again.

I look at it as in buying a Car... Paid cash for it. Get free maintenance for a year and then you now have to buy the car again to use it for the next year. So on and so on till a new model comes out or someone makes a better (cheaper) model.

Now don't get me wrong. I think that everyone should get paid for their hard work wither its monetary, pat on the backs, gold watch, dinner or what ever to acknowledge that hard work.

I have only paid for one plugin so far (it works great and does what is expected) and I am watching several other to see the progress on them and things that need to be fixed. I might go to the test server and try one or two out just to see them work. The thing that stops me from getting them is the thought of continuing to keep paying for the same thing.

So I keep learn and moving forward and someday I will understand to the point that I can make the free stuff better.

 

[Sic]

Please don't misunderstand me. I hold CWTN and Sic in very high reguards. They both have helped me to the level that I needed and let me progress and develop on my own with an occasional nudge in the right direction. With that said the question in my mind is what happens when the year is over. Can you still use the plugin with out any updates or does the plugin just stop working until you buy it again.

I look at it as in buying a Car... Paid cash for it. Get free maintenance for a year and then you now have to buy the car again to use it for the next year. So on and so on till a new model comes out or someone makes a better (cheaper) model.

Now don't get me wrong. I think that everyone should get paid for their hard work wither its monetary, pat on the backs, gold watch, dinner or what ever to acknowledge that hard work.

I have only paid for one plugin so far (it works great and does what is expected) and I am watching several other to see the progress on them and things that need to be fixed. I might go to the test server and try one or two out just to see them work. The thing that stops me from getting them is the thought of continuing to keep paying for the same thing.

So I keep learn and moving forward and someday I will understand to the point that I can make the free stuff better.

they are a 1 year license, so you can use it during that 1 year license time frame.

 

[Zebadiah]

Great! For the first year. What happens the next year? Do the plugin just stop working or do they continue to work but without any support?

 

[Sic]

Great! For the first year. What happens the next year? Do the plugin just stop working or do they continue to work but without any support?

once your license runs out you need to renew it otherwise you would no longer have access to it.

 

[BigDorf]

Unfortunately, when a resource (like mq2cleric in this case) goes from beta to release, the RG launcher doesn't have the ability to delete the old file.

re: no notice, chat did post in the cleric thread that it would be scheduled to be a paid resource next live build of VV.
View attachment 22693

the plugins are available free to use with your RG lvl 2 on both the test server, and emu servers, and has been free to use on a live server for about the past 6 months while in development.

For the sake of argument, lets forget this is talking about CWTN and the MQ2Cleric plugin. Instead lets go with MQ2Nav and MQ2EasyFind.
For those who have been around VV/MQ2 for weeks, some months, they are "standard", carrying this style of banner.


If they (or any other plugin!) were to be removed from "included in very vanilla" status then people would notice.
A forum post by way of giving a statement of intent, is fine, it gives a heads up. Yet the important place that information needs to be captured is the holy grail of patch notes.

Todays look at the launcher, and patch notes:

Menton of three plugins, especially introudction of new one, and deprecation of an older.
Nothing about a plugin being dropped from the standard, included with VV bundle.

Similar as do the walk of plugins and macros.

Nothing reporting an issue with plugins, its giving a clean bill of health.

That is until launch MQ2 and login to characters. Then, you get error messages about DLLs.

While the launcher can install plugins, youve said it cant remove them.
Can it not disable plugins? Put up some message to say you have a plugin deployed previously, no longer part of "included with VV" and therefore prompt to acknowledge its being disabled. After which, the launcher takes action to disable.

Im guessing, the actions needed to take as individuals, is a mix of brute force delete the "DLLs", and find config ini files changing 1s to 0s, or removing lines altogether.
So far, I see "MacroQuest.ini" has a plugin section with name value pairs. Indeed, values of "1". I dont see why the launcher cant maintain entries in that.

 

[Zebadiah]

LoL..... Thanks that explains a bunch. Great work and keep on trucking. I will continue to watch and see how this develops. <Bows to Sic>

Edit: I don't want to go into a discussion about the merits of your and CWTN's plugins. I will probably get them. I was just trying to add to the discussion that Dethbrngr had asked and what the future of RG will be. I will bow out now...

 

[Sic]

For the sake of argument, lets forget this is talking about CWTN and the MQ2Cleric plugin. Instead lets go with MQ2Nav and MQ2EasyFind.
For those who have been around VV/MQ2 for weeks, some months, they are "standard", carrying this style of banner.
View attachment 22696

If they (or any other plugin!) were to be removed from "included in very vanilla" status then people would notice.
A forum post by way of giving a statement of intent, is fine, it gives a heads up. Yet the important place that information needs to be captured is the holy grail of patch notes.

Todays look at the launcher, and patch notes:
View attachment 22698
Menton of three plugins, especially introudction of new one, and deprecation of an older.
Nothing about a plugin being dropped from the standard, included with VV bundle.

Similar as do the walk of plugins and macros.
View attachment 22699
Nothing reporting an issue with plugins, its giving a clean bill of health.

That is until launch MQ2 and login to characters. Then, you get error messages about DLLs.

While the launcher can install plugins, youve said it cant remove them.
Can it not disable plugins? Put up some message to say you have a plugin deployed previously, no longer part of "included with VV" and therefore prompt to acknowledge its being disabled. After which, the launcher takes action to disable.

Im guessing, the actions needed to take as individuals, is a mix of brute force delete the "DLLs", and find config ini files changing 1s to 0s, or removing lines altogether.
So far, I see "MacroQuest.ini" has a plugin section with name value pairs. Indeed, values of "1". I dont see why the launcher cant maintain entries in that.

there is an open issue on the RedGuide's Launcher for this functionality that @r1pt1de is working on

< Here >

 

[wymranar]

I will say that i hate SaaS generally. I miss the old days where you could buy a copy of X and it meant you actually owned it.

 

[BigDorf]

Heh
I didn't think I'd come up with a unique idea, it's common sense.
An installer / setup program can giveth, it's equally right the program can taketh away as well!

OS and apps vendors have been doing it for many years. It gets away from end users delete things manually, leading to a world of pain for support.


But... it doesn't take away the point, it should be mentioned in the patch notes!

 

[Dethbrngr]

I appreciate the non flame responses guys. Again I love Sic and CWTN work. I personally use 3 plugins and I guess a 4th will be paid for when live. I am NOT discrediting their work and in fact it is no towards CWTN. I have also paid for a couple of other macs that had nothing to do with them (epic ornamentation one and i forget other). I don't mind paying, i am just worried eventually it will become $$$$ for any little thing we do. I am glad to hear KA isnt going to go that route as I use it a lot as well. I agree the the MQ2... is a nice setup and in some cases its better than some KA stuff....but i think that is because i dont know what the hell I am doing.

Someone mentioned a bundle price.....Now that is something I would jump on board. Devestator back in the day would charge $20 a macro or $100 for all of them.

 

[BigDorf]

Ok - taking a breath.

I made the original post, to highlight that the current push from the launcher had broken things. In as much, what was working before update, after it had been applied errors were coming to the screen about out of date DLLs.
There was also no mention of the components related to those DLLs in the patch notes. So at the front, the "launcher view" that everyone see's there was trouble.

It could have been made about any plugin, that went from "included with VV" status, to what I'll coin as "pay to play".



My short time here, means I don't know the history. I just see something that has always been available since "my first day" (yay for 2 weeks!) using the software, and now isn't.
It was news to me today, that the plugin was being withdrawn from free use.
As the cleric plugin has been useful, I thought to make comment I'd appreciated it while it lasted.



.. that's the original.
Now as the thread has morphed into a different discussion....



The area tripping up understanding is the Cleric being originally "included with VV".
As opposed to something that can click "watch" via the website, and install as an extra in the launcher.

Yes, I've seen other references to class plugins, SK and Zerker, as there is lots of talk on the forums with some Sic videos looking at them.
I had seen they were pay to play, give over some $$ for the license use for 1 year. It's not a new concept.

Couple these two points; cleric is bunbled with VV and others are paid for, I thought it was a selling point, a loss leader. That is to say, "Here is a class plugin, see what it can do for you. Like it? There are others you can pick up too!". Not to expect revenue from Cleric directly, but to have it out there as a free to use selling point to show what the class plugins can do. Highlight the common look and feel of the UI, and how it can behave out of the box.

Now it appears that isn't the case, fine.

 

[Knightly]

That seems fair, I think the point about it not showing up in the launcher change log is also a fair point and probably just an oversight on Redbot's part. I think, though I'm not going back to confirm, when this was done in the past he did include it in the patch notes. Good feedback in any case.

 

[Sic]

That seems fair, I think the point about it not showing up in the launcher change log is also a fair point and probably just an oversight on Redbot's part. I think, though I'm not going back to confirm, when this was done in the past he did include it in the patch notes. Good feedback in any case.

yup. it definitely wasn't an intentional non-inclusion on the patch notes - and it wasn't something i was looking to throw anyone under the bus for having accidentally missed (not implying knightly did, what i meant to say is i wasn't looking to try and shift any blame or etc). Once the conversation came up, I msg'd red and we updated the vvl ive update notes as well as the redchanges.txt (which is what the patcher shows)
In the past when plugins go to paid resources they are mentioned in the patch notes.

Since this conversation started, if you go and patch VV again, you will see updated redchanges.txt (patch notes)

Edit: I also added a suggetsion to the Gitlab issue for the launcher (the issue about not deleting old .dlls) with a suggestion to allow some kind of notification directly to the user if/when something that they expect is now different - because that is a reasonable expectation. > Here<

 

[tehfeer]

We should all keep in mind that these plugins are something these guys continue to work on, and as stuff changes each may need to be updated. That yearly license allows the developer to continue to support the software and develop it. Also we are talking about less than many of us would spend going out to eat for one meal.

The last time I played was years ago before all these new plugins and macros existed so having one of these plugins available to try was really nice. I initially thought similar to bigdorf that this class plugin was free as an intro to the others, the more I read through the forums more I began to think perhaps I was mistaken and it was in beta.

I am not sure if its possible but, it would be nice to have some type of trial on live, since playing on test is pretty different than a TLP. Since the cleric was free when I started it worked out and I just purchased the SK and now Cleric, but I am not sure I would have dropped the cash if I had not been able to play with mq2cleric first. Bundles would also be nice but I cant complain too much 20$ a year seems pretty reasonable for what you get.

As always thank you for your hard work and these plugins!

 

[Sic]

We should all keep in mind that these plugins are something these guys continue to work on, and as stuff changes each may need to be updated. That yearly license allows the developer to continue to support the software and develop it. Also we are talking about less than many of us would spend going out to eat for one meal.

The last time I played was years ago before all these new plugins and macros existed so having one of these plugins available to try was really nice. I initially thought similar to bigdorf that this class plugin was free as an intro to the others, the more I read through the forums more I began to think perhaps I was mistaken and it was in beta.

I am not sure if its possible but, it would be nice to have some type of trial on live, since playing on test is pretty different than a TLP. Since the cleric was free when I started it worked out and I just purchased the SK and now Cleric, but I am not sure I would have dropped the cash if I had not been able to play with mq2cleric first. Bundles would also be nice but I cant complain too much 20$ a year seems pretty reasonable for what you get.

As always thank you for your hard work and these plugins!

(i've mentioned this a few times) they are free to use on test server with your redguides lvl 2 - so you can /testcopy your team and give them a full real-world try - or create some low lvl dudes and play at that low lvl you would have on a tlp.

 

[drwhomphd]

There's always going to be a trade-off. Given the level of effort CWTN (and Sic), and Denethor put in on their work PLUS the amount of effort to support said work, I think their prices are quite reasonable. In many ways you're paying for that support and improvement of the plugin/macro. Your alternative is leveraging the free resources many of us support as a hobby which will generally just leave you with, in the case of IHC, grumpy forum responses from me or a helpful post from Morisato the IHC maintainer.

 

[Dethbrngr]

Your alternative is leveraging the free resources many of us support as a hobby which will generally just leave you with, in the case of IHC, grumpy forum responses from me

Dude I chuckled at this one. I know you been looking for help which is kind of why i asked if its going to move to paid. When guys like you get burnt out the only option we will have is paid......unless KA lives forever.

I would love to have all MQ2(insert class here) but I cant drop $180+ annually which sucks because i have 50+ 115's. the only class I really dont have currently is a monk (sorry monks). Please consider a government cheese option for people who want all your plugins but cannot afford.

Its like being on crack and suffering withdrawal except I'm not doing "THAT"to get the goods~