Important: MMORPG veterans hate WoW (1 Viewer)

[Frybread]

http://www.notaddicted.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975

Isobelle's thread was about gamespot idiocy, but started to get derailed by the classic "wow is good" and the "wow is bad" crew. Let's take up that good old discussion here.

I'll start:

You're both right, except for the guy who said it's ruining the genre - that's wrong.

WoW reminds me of the 90's band Green Day. When Green Day became mega stars, all the aging punks said "GREEN DAY SUX! they r killing punk!" but at the same time, a whole new generation of kids were turned on to Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, The Ramones, and so on - all thanks to Green Day.

As a fan of the MMORPG genre, I'm happy to see WoW get nearly 9 million subscribers, because at least 8 million of those people are experiencing their first ninja-looter, first "ding", and it's great. Any MMORPG developer now has 9 milliion more people who will be giving their game a second look, even if it has crazy ideas such as "traditional PvP" or "no instances" or "fun".

In conclusion, wow sux!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mordiceius]

OH NOES!! WOW IS KILLING GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously people, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I'm sick and tired of people saying that WoW is ruining the gaming world. Perhaps, millions of people play the game because it offers what they want in a game.

Gouka, Naolin, Frybread, it's nice to see there are some logical people out there. But seriously everyone, okay okay okay we get it, you do not like WoW. That doesn't mean it's killing gaming and ruining the market. WoW found what people wanted in a game and capitalized off that. Now all the otehr companies are going "Oh shit... THAT is the reason we never got past 100k subscribers."

I'm not a fan of the Halo game series, but I don't go around saying "ZOMG! Halo is killing the FPS world!" Halo found what people wanted in an FPS and due to smart marketing, capitalized off it. It was no different for WoW and the MMO world.

I agree with Frybread here. A game being popular is not a bad thing. In fact I think it's the best thing that could happen. By WoW getting millions upon millions of subscribers, gaming in general can expand. WoW goes with the "anyone can play" approach allows people to experience what they never had a chance to before. Am I the only one that remembers when gamers were wholly shunned? Gaming was a dirty habit that people made fun of you for. WoW is a virus, though not in a bad way. It is addictive and when you start playing, it makes you want to get your friends to play. It's accessable. People don't need to be hardcore to start playing.

With WoW sparking interest in the MMO world, this allows all types of new games be created that never would have been able to see the light of day.

I AM NOT SPEAKING OUT OF FACT HERE, THIS IS MY OPINION - but it seems to me that those that hate WoW are those that want games to not be player friendly. They want the old hardcore approach of UO and such. Don't get me wrong, I loved UO, but how many WoW players would survive in a world like that? You can just be like "Okay so WoW was an easy game, the next big game should have steep death penalities and be like UO." IMO, you need to slowly build them up to that. But all in all, I don't want to return to another 'dark age of gaming' like we had in the times of UO. I enjoy being able to go to work and chat with co-workers during break about that new nice item they got on their WoW character. This is something that was never able to happen before. AND IT IS NOT A BAD THING

So seriously, everyone who thinks WoW is killing gaming shut the fuck up. It is killing the 'dark age of gaming' you want. And no one cares.


/rant

 

[Gouka]

Moving posts FTL...anyhoo, this post will seem a little off, but that's due to moving it, and being too lazy to edit much :ohyeah:

If you all want WoW banished and some hardcore uber MMO for you to grief in, fine, make one yourself. You'll probably get 10 subscibers, aka no MONEY. You can't pay for the maintenance, etc. And your 'oh-so-wanted' hardcore MMO dies. Then you realise it's not the game...it's just that NO ONE is interested in a hardcore MMO, except those 10 WoW-haters.
I could 'imagine' how a game should be, look like and play, but if no one shares that vision, that game would fail horribly. And that's what is happening to all those other MMO's, the players are going soft, because they want to be soft.
So, they have a simple choice: try to make an MMO for a very small group of people (the WoW-haters), or make an MMO which is soft, and might appeal to a bigger crowd (which means more money for them).
Ofcourse you will choose to make one for a small group, so you never get any money, so you have to shutdown your MMO within months....amirite?!?!!!one1!11!11!!!
*shrug*
WoW is EZmode all the way, that's what I like (I guess). It runs good, and doesn't require me to put in a huge time played to make something out of my toons. Maybe when I need a change from this WoW-carebear-fest I'm playing, I'll try something else. But while I like being in this WoW-carebear-fest, no changes.

*sigh* stupid wall of text :shifty:

 

[imported_shadowstalker]

ramones pwn

 

[Khatib]

WoW reminds me of the 90's band Green Day. When Green Day became mega stars, all the aging punks said "GREEN DAY SUX! they r killing punk!" but at the same time, a whole new generation of kids were turned on to Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, The Ramones, and so on - all thanks to Green Day.

Except people don't get "turned on" to the original UO, the original EQ, etc, etc by WoW.

MMOs are not music. People don't "go back to" the classics. It's a very linear evolution, and due to WoW, it will be a long, long time til a major developer circles back to some of the best aspects (which also happened to be a little bit danger-esque) and has the balls to put them into a new game again.

 

[Khatib]

They want the old hardcore approach of UO and such. Don't get me wrong, I loved UO, but how many WoW players would survive in a world like that?

Not many. And that's just fine. Those games can easily make a profit off a 500k subscriber base. The thing I pointed out in my reply to the front page post, is that now PUBLISHERS won't fork up the money to developers unless they are making a game that will create the big draw.

There are developers that will make those games, and players that will play them. But in the end, it's a business, and to make the full business model, you gotta have investors, and most investors aren't all that game savvy. They see a market they wanna get in on, and they see a market giant, and they wanna see replication, not what they would term "regression" without really understanding the genre.

THAT is the problem. THAT is what WoW has "done" to the industry. I don't think that's a doomsday announcement, or an "I hate WoW" declaration. I think it's just plain logical, and quite easily acceptable. WoW gives plenty of people a good time, but it WILL, and already DOES, hamper people trying to make radically different games targeted at smaller market shares, because investors always want a bigger return if they think it's available and they have the power to apply pressure.

So seriously, everyone who thinks WoW is killing gaming shut the fuck up. It is killing the 'dark age of gaming' you want. And no one cares.

A) apparently you cared, cause you sure ranted about it

B) maybe YOU want the dark age of gaming killed, as much as some of us want it ressurected? But of course, you're you, so you're right and we're wrong, is that it?

 

[Mordiceius]

B) maybe YOU want the dark age of gaming killed, as much as some of us want it ressurected? But of course, you're you, so you're right and we're wrong, is that it?

Pretty much.

 

[Lesson25]

Except people don't get "turned on" to the original UO, the original EQ, etc, etc by WoW.

MMOs are not music. People don't "go back to" the classics. It's a very linear evolution, and due to WoW, it will be a long, long time til a major developer circles back to some of the best aspects (which also happened to be a little bit danger-esque) and has the balls to put them into a new game again.

I agree & disagree with you.

From a consumer standpoint: yes, it's not a literal simile. People who grow up with WoW--myself included--will never think, "hey, I'm kinda sick of WoW; I hear that 3-year-old 'EQ' game was pretty good; maybe I should go check it out!", because most old games aren't worth the time*. (*Note: except a select few that are timeless; amongst them, FF7 and System Shock 2.) However, I think now that I have spent serious time playing WoW, I am more likely to pick up a new MMORPG that I perhaps wouldn't have considered 2 years ago. I was "on the bubble", if you will, & WoW was a good transitional game for a genre I probably wouldn't have otherwise entered. And I also think that the players who would have potentially bought Name-A-New-MMORPG had WoW never existed will still consider buying Name-A-New-MMORPG even with WoW's existance. WoW may have expanded the population of MMORPGers by orders of magnitude, but I don't think it has really altered the original population. (Any of you old-schoolers, feel free to argue from personal experience).

From a product-development standpoint: I can really only guess here. I imagine WoW is something like the summer blockbuster hit that generates millions of revenue, so maybe all the game-company execs look over & say "ooh, look at their profits; I want you to go make me one of those for us!" On the other hand, maybe the reason why it seems like there are less & less new MMORPGs like the original EQ/UO/etc is just because there's more new MMORPGs period. 25 games in one year is a lot. Again, I don't really think--let's call it The Old School Market--I don't really think The Old School Market for MMORPGs has really changed in the past 10 years, just the bordering markets & our perception of MMORPGs.

 

[Naolin]

Gouka, Naolin, Frybread, it's nice to see there are some logical people out there.

god I really needed more coffee, I sounded logical. As for WoW, well I still play the game almost every day (abiet not for long periods of time) Sure when the next best thing comes along I'll go and play that, but I doubt I can ever go back to hardcore MMORPG's I think I'm getting too old for that now.

 

[Mordiceius]

Time for another rant from me now that I'm off lunch and back at work.

The naysayers we see for WoW are the same type we see for every game. "Today's games are as good as the ones ten years ago." I call them nostalgists. It sort of reminds me of when you were a kid and you used to climb that HUGE hill down the street. You remember it taking forever to climb it because the thing was gigantic. When you go back 20 years later, you realize the thing was tiny and it was just the wild imagination of youth. It is sort of the same thing for these nostalgists.

Actually... I need to coin that word right now. BRB to log on to UrbanDictionary.com.

Okay, I'm back.

I'm sure you all know someone who has been like "Fuck... these new Final Fantasys SUCK. Nothing will ever beat FF7." These are the nostalgists.

Here is how I believe it ties into WoW. UO and EQ were both MAJOR timesinks (don't get me wrong, WoW is too). The thing is, when in UO and EQ, with harsh penalties the game can be overly frustrating and feel like work (one again is applicable to WoW in certain ways, but I'm getting to that). For those of you that used to play UO and EQ, how many times can you remember someone fucking you over and you going into abouts of nerd rage and wanting to punch a hole on your wall (and I know many that did).

From most of my experiences, majority of the people I played UO and EQ with were teenages and college students. They were people that could spend hours upon hours on games and not worry about it. And that was mainly because video games were still seen as a "kid and teenager" market. Very few games were marketed towards those that were over 25. More than that, playing computer games all the time were more of a social stigma and you can remember the horrible stereotypes of that generation.

Well it has come to the point where gaming has become more popular. With XBox's and PS2 and <insert next gen console here> in every household, gaming is starting to lose that social stigma. Video gaming is starting to be seen as an acceptable hobby. Those that used to play EQ and UO are now getting into their mid-20s and early-30s. People have jobs and families and most don't have time for games that are disgusting timesinks like EQ and UO. People don't want to be progressing along and lose multiple days or more of progress because of some dickwad that wanted to PK them.

WoW really was the first game to recognize this and capitalize off it. They went with the "something for everyone" approach. Work odd hours? You can solo most the content if you want. Don't have time to raid and such? Log on a couple hours a week to PVP.

We're all forgetting one of the most important things about games though: They are supposed to be fun.

It is obvious that the general public doesn't want games like UO and EQ anymore. They are those that cry out for it (which I would guess is less than 1% of the populace). It is just too bad their cries are heard the loudest.

Personally, I remember a lot of good times UO. I also remember times when I was red with rage over the stupidest things. I like the solution that WoW offers, and it is obvious that millions of others agree with me.

 

[Mordiceius]

god I really needed more coffee, I sounded logical. As for WoW, well I still play the game almost every day (abiet not for long periods of time) Sure when the next best thing comes along I'll go and play that, but I doubt I can ever go back to hardcore MMORPG's I think I'm getting too old for that now.

Exactly my point. I feel the same way.

 

[mven]

From the other thread:

There are 2 ways to look at this, in my opinion:
A. People who bitch and moan about WoW never played it.
B. People who bitch and moan about WoW played it, sucked at it, got their ass handed to them in PvP and never made it into a PvE raiding guild.

I did pretty much everything that was available to do in WoW before I quit. The things I didn't do would just be a different version of the dame thing (i.e. maxing smithing vs tailoring.. I FEEL THAT smithing is no more fun or interesting than tailoring so there is no reason to say I left something out because I didn't max both). That being said I don't really like WoW. I stuck around for so long because I got so many of my RL friends to play it and I kept thinking that eventually I would find the part where the game gets good. I thought "If I get to max level..." "Maybe once I finish all of my gear..." "I'll rank up in PvP..." "I'll join a raiding guild..." "Maybe once we get further in Naxx..." "I'll get some faction and get all of these crazy recipes..." etc etc etc... It never happened. The game never really got "good" IN MY OPINION. This is not to say it is a bad terrible evil wrong horrible game. It's just not that good IN MY OPINION IN CASE THAT ISN'T OBVIOUS FROM ME TALKING ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME IN THE WHOLE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH. WoW is mediocre (plus or minus a bit towards good or bad in differing cases) in just about every respect IN MY OPINION. If you total it all up, WoW is probably the best mmorpg ever released after you weigh in every factor THOUGH THIS IS OF COURSE JUST MY OPINION. I FEEL THAT every other game that did something better than WoW did something else worse. Unfortunately for me the things these other games did wrong are trivial to me and the things they did right are more important. *shrug*

From this thread:

OH NOES!! WOW IS KILLING GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously people, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I'm sick and tired of people saying that WoW is ruining the gaming world. Perhaps, millions of people play the game because it offers what they want in a game.

Actually. THE WAY I SEE IT WoW is by no means "Killing Gaming". I FEEL THAT it is however doing a pretty good job of killing what a good number of people want in their games. FROM WHAT I CAN TELL you are completely right in that the "dark age of gaming" as you choose to call it is going away. I don't really think I am holding on for nostalgia's sake however. I simply want something different from my game than you do. From your other post:

We're all forgetting one of the most important things about games though: They are supposed to be fun.

I disagree with this. At least in the sense that they are "always" supposed to be fun. They are supposed to provide an experience the player enjoys IN MY OPINION. This doesn't necessarily have to come from having "fun". People go and see sad movies, they see scary movies, they see happy movies, they see violent movies, they see movies with intense drama, etc. Watching "The Passion Of The Christ" isn't supposed to be "fun" it's supposed to evoke some form of emotional response FROM WHAT I CAN TELL. Why is it not okay for me to want something similar for my gaming experience?!

IN MY EXPERIENCE WoW is attempting to be nothing but fun fun fun fun fun. I don't want that. I want to experience more than win win win win tempered by the occasional minor annoyance of the extremely insignificant consequences of failure. I am capable of experiencing a much broader range of feeling and I would like a game that delivers an experience that understands and plays upon that. AS I SEE IT fun fun fun fun is not immersive, it's cheap thrill after cheap thrill, it's laying in a hospital bed after surgery and hitting the morphine button over and over and over again. To me there is nothing stimulating or memorable about this type of experience. Real life is full of ups and downs IN MY EXPERIENCE. To create an immersive experience for me it has to be somewhat realistic *shrug*.

IN MY OPINION WoW ruins the fun factor of playing in a virtual world because it trivializes fun. With ups and downs you have the means of quantifying and differentiating between the good times and the bad OR SO I'VE HEARD. With WoW it's the same day in and day out IN ALL THE TIME I HAVE SPENT PLAYING IT. With WoW I never get that "OMFG I can't believe we just did that!!!" feeling. It's more like "That was neat... Did it drop anything I want?". WoW is the first game that ever made me care more about advancement than about the "journey". I view this as a bad thing. I was never even close to doing everything that could be done in EQ yet I enjoyed playing. I was never max level, never had the best gear, never had a huge guild, etc... I tried everything I could think of to find a way to enjoy WoW in the same way and failed miserably.

If you all want WoW banished and some hardcore uber MMO for you to grief in, fine, make one yourself. You'll probably get 10 subscibers, aka no MONEY. You can't pay for the maintenance, etc. And your 'oh-so-wanted' hardcore MMO dies. Then you realise it's not the game...it's just that NO ONE is interested in a hardcore MMO, except those 10 WoW-haters.

This is silly IN MY OPINION. An MMORPG costs millions and millions to make OR SO I'VE HEARD. I don't want to make an MMORPG. I don't even hold on to the idea that someone will ever make my perfect game. It's unlikely even if I were to make it myself I could accomplish this. There is always something that could be better or at least "different". What I, and I assume others like myself, want is for it to be known that there IS a market out there for games that offer something more. It won't be the 8 million sub WoW market IN MY OPINION. But I am pretty sure there are enough people who want something more from their game that they could sustain an MMORPG. I think even new people who are hardcore into WoW would still be interested in a game that offers more challenge and a "deeper" experience.

The thing is that I FEEL THAT no game coming out now or any time in the near future (next 3-4 years) is going to take a significant chunk of WoW's market share away. So why even try to capture that market? I THINK THAT VG, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc will not be able to touch WoW. So why try to fight for a chunk of a market that you can't win when you can make a game that appeals to a market that has no where to go. I have had several people I know try Vanguard and decide not to play it. When I asked them why... General answer was something along the lines of: "It's too similar to WoW and it runs like shit... Why would I want to start over there when I can already play WoW." VG never ever never had a chance to beat WoW or even put a dent in its subscriber base IN MY OPINION. Yet instead of appealing to a different subset of players, someone over there at SOE decided VG had to appeal to WoW players FROM WHAT I CAN TELL... Why?! I THINK it could have been different and offered a real choice for players. Now the options are "Play WoW?" or "Play WoW that runs like shit and is incomplete". *shrug*

***Edited so that no one is misled into thinking I speak da troof.

 

[Mordiceius]

One problem I have with every post you make mven is you state opinion as fact.

"WoW is mediocre." - This is an opinion being stated as a fact.

"I think WoW is mediocre." - Is an opinion being stated as an opinion.

"It's just not that good." - This is an opinion being stated as a fact.

"I do not think WoW is that good." - Is an opinion being stated as an opinion.

You may think that WoW is mediocre, but many others do not think so. So for the love of god, quit stating opinions as facts.

As to my thought that games are meant to be fun, I didn't mean that everything you do in the game is supposed to be fun. I meant that when you leave the game, you recount it as a fun experience.

When I play a demo for a game and it crashes every 5 minutes, is buggy, or just goes about things the way I don't want, I leave the game thinking "Wow, that was such a shitty time." By my standards, the game fails. If I do not see the overall experience as fun, it is a failure by my standards.

 

[mven]

Thanks for the lesson in proper debate technique there. I almost always post from work and in the middle of doing other things. I don't proof read everything I post to make sure I am not saying something someone might construe as something other than my opinion. I guess seeing as I am obviously not a certified expert in the field of MMORPG design I just assume that anything I post about any game is going to be taken as opinion. I'll be sure to be more careful in the future so I don't offend anyone by stating unproven "facts" about their favorite game. If I have time I'll make sure to go back and edit my post so that no one is misled in thinking that I speak nothing but the gospel truth.

As to my thought that games are meant to be fun, I didn't mean that everything you do in the game is supposed to be fun. I meant that when you leave the game, you recount it as a fun experience.

So what was your experience when playing games from the "dark age of gaming" such as UO and/or EQ? My point was that while there are times in WoW that aren't exactly super duper uber fun for the most part there have never been times when I have experienced anything other than minor annoyance or disappointment. Whereas with other games I have actually felt myself become upset, sad, angry, etc to a much larger degree. When I find myself overcoming whatever it is that put me in such a state it feels more meaningful to me than it does accomplishing something in WoW that could never evoke such emotion.

Maybe I just don't play MMORPGs for the same reasons other folks do. I don't know. I don't have to be successful at everything to enjoy myself. If I encounter something that stops me in my tracks or even sets me back significantly it simply makes me work harder to achieve whatever it is I set out to do. If everything is so easy that I feel like it may as well have just been handed to me on a silver platter then I start to get bored.

It's not like I loved everything about games from the "dark ages". I don't have a hardon for it taking me longer to level or experiencing an endless grind. If that were my desire I'd just hit up Lineage 2. It bored me to tears. It's also not like I hate everything about WoW. My problem with WoW isn't one of absolutely hating the game and wishing it and everyone who played it would burn in hell... My problem is that I feel completely indifferent about my experience with it. It didn't bore me to tears every second I was logged in. It just didn't really suck me in and make me want to play 24/7 either.

When I play a demo for a game and it crashes every 5 minutes, is buggy, or just goes about things the way I don't want, I leave the game thinking "Wow, that was such a shitty time." By my standards, the game fails. If I do not see the overall experience as fun, it is a failure by my standards.

I don't really think anyone here is arguing that a game that is unplayable is great simply because it has merit somewhere else. There are things I typically take for granted when I judge a game's merits. Being able to play is one of them. I would never argue that a game I couldn't play for more than 5 minutes without crashing was superior to WoW. My point was simply that a game doesn't always have to provide a "fun" experience to be a good game. I am assuming that fun or not the game would actually be playable. If the experience isn't fun because of functionality or stability that is something completely different.

 

[Khatib]

One problem I have with every post you make mven is you state opinion as fact.

"WoW is mediocre." - This is an opinion being stated as a fact.

"I think WoW is mediocre." - Is an opinion being stated as an opinion.

"It's just not that good." - This is an opinion being stated as a fact.

The idea that it is only an opinion should be obvious to any reader knowledgable on the subject and the difference between facts and opinions. He is merely stating his opinions with convicition, not trying to "pass them off" as fact.

I read a film review that said "300 is the greatest movie of the year". OMG, he presented that as a FACT!! The year is less than half over, not to mention I'm pretty sure my grandma would have hated that movie, therefore I intend to sue the newspaper that printed said FACT from their columnist. We'll be rich!!! Who's with me?

When I play a demo for a game and it crashes every 5 minutes, is buggy, or just goes about things the way I don't want, I leave the game thinking "Wow, that was such a shitty time." By my standards, the game fails. If I do not see the overall experience as fun, it is a failure by my standards.

And we're back to this again. If Lineage 2, or EVE, or UO causes you to lose time for fucking up and dying... it's bad, because it's not what YOU want. But if WOW fails to penalize sub-par players, and just allows them to bash their head into the wall heedlessly until they knock it down, and I prefer that it would actually hurt them... I'm wrong and the game is still right, since it's what *I* want, and it's not what *YOU* want, and *I* am wrong for saying WoW is not my perfect game.

When the guy who is trying to lecture other people on debate is constantly pulling these double standards out of the box, I honestly just gotta sit back and giggle. /golfclap

 

[Ripperjack]

OH NOES!! WOW IS KILLING GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously people, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I can honestly say that WoW had killed my sex life, not there was much of one to begin with.

I still play WoW today. Not because it is good, because it is the LEAST crappy and most solo friendly, MMO on the market today.

 

[Khatib]

I still play WoW today. Not because it is good, because it is the LEAST crappy and most solo friendly, MMO on the market today.

And that is what cracks me up about so many fanboys. I'm not ever saying WoW is *horrible* I'm just trying to point out that it honestly isn't EARNING it's numbers in all ways. It was just the default. And don't act like the LotR movies didn't bring a ton of people into fantasy gaming, be it single player stuff like Morrowind/Oblivion, NWN, etc, MMOs, or even D&D and other tabletop stuff. And when it did bring those new players to MMOs, WoW wasn't neccessarily some super awesome game, just the best-by-default for a new person to start in on. And once you get started in on an MMO, you don't like to just "throw that time away", so you stick with it, often a lot longer than you'd like to.

Yet people all point to the numbers as if that's proof of it's quality. My answer to that is simply to point out Britney Spears or Ashley Simpson. Yeah, they sell records. Does that make them great musical talents and great musical/lyrical minds? Not so much, imo.

 

[Lesson25]

I can honestly say that WoW had killed my sex life, not there was much of one to begin with.

Let me guess--the women you dated, you dated not because they were hawt, but because they were the least ugly and most accessible women you knew at the time.

8-)

 

[Jan]

Let me guess--the women you dated, you dated not because they were hawt, but because they were the least ugly and most accessible women you knew at the time.

8-)

Isn't that what guys do?

 

[Frybread]

How do you guys define "hardcore pvp" and "hardcore mmorpg" and what would playing on one of those servers be like?

 

[imported_tribute]

Ok so I have thought of a comparison for the WoW vs. traditional MMO debate. Think of it like the book/movie Clear and present danger now the book was really in depth and explained events in a lot of detail whilst the movie didn't go so deep, dropped a few characters and altered the plot slightly. (If you haven't read/seen this don't read on.)

Now when I first read the book I loved it, then i saw the movie and thought "this sucks, they butchered a perfectly good story by making it a movie!"
Months later I watched the movie again (God knows why!) and I thought, "you know, as a stand-alone movie, this isn't so bad and actually works quite well!"

My point is that people of the "old school" of MMOs are going to look at WoW as a bad thing that's a watered down version of the original style, designed for the majority, but they forget that this isn't a bad thing!

Horses for courses, some people read books and some people watch movies, how do you cater for people who don't want to sit down for hours on end and read a book? You make a 90 minute movie that "summarises" the book, albeit with a few slight changes making it more accessible to the public.

All you have to do is go back and look at the shitful UI of DAoC to see that this game was indeed "hardcore" in that if you weren't into IT and the likes you basically couldn't play.

Now WoW is easy to play, point and click, does this make it better? Well this is opinion now isn't it? My point is that you can't compair WoW with other MMOs because they are all good in different ways depending on what you want (except SWG, damn Sony, what a mess!)

 

[isobelle]

guys, look:

wow is doing for MMOs what Windows did for the PC market, and you can see how many people just LOVE windows.

before windows, there was Unix (I'm generalizing, it's called making a point).

unix had a certain elegance to it, a lot of people swore by it. bob and suzy in marketing weren't very computer savvy, though, and were amazed at what windows could do for them (don't derail with apple crap, they're both ripoffs of XeroXs PARC system works).

millions of people jumped on windows and now it dominates the computer industry.

things like linux and unix are still out there, for the hardcore PvP crowd, but it's a steep learning curve with a serious death penalty.

windows is getting more and more blunder proofed, to the point where it won't 'let you die' without entering 5 passwords and clicking okay a hundred times.

and yet... still, it dominates. bob and suzy are happy, BUT SO ARE EPIC AND MYTHIC AND BLIZZARD ET AL, because they can create software for the masses. when was the last time you seriously 'GAMED' on a *nix platform? tux racer?

lol?

get over it folks. it's the future. embrace it.

feel free to shun everyone else and play you old school games alone, but then again... what do the first two Ms in MMORPG stand for again?

 

[Unregistered]

Really this is all arbitrary until Colekutz weighs in.

 

[Khatib]

How do you guys define "hardcore pvp" and "hardcore mmorpg" and what would playing on one of those servers be like?

Dying should make you swear, at least inwardly, every time. Dying should cost you, by the time you've gotten 15+ days played on your character, so fairly advanced, a *minimum* of an hour of time. If you die more than once an hour, you should be losing ground somewhere, be it economicly or xp-wise.

For the PvP, since so many people know it, and it's kind of a topic at hand, lets use WoW for an example. You have a mob on you and a player on you. In a situation where you KNOW you're gonna die and can't kill either first, if at all possible, you try and let the player get the killing blow. It shouldn't be like that. PvP should hurt as much as any other death. A PvP death should hurt as much (or at least nearly as much) as any other death. IN MY OPINION in a really good MMO, first off, it just will have PvP... secondly, PvP won't happen too often. Not on the frequency of the zerg-fest there is in a WoW BG or that there used to be at TM/SS. PvP should be a means of the community policing itself, and there needs to be a penalty for that to work at all. If someone or some guild wants to be a bunch of dickheads, generally enough decent people will ban together to beat them into the dirt for it.

And when PvP happens so seldomly, and hurts so much when you lose, you start really having to choose your engagements, and in several cases, being able to run away well is actually a very good trait, not a "cowardly" negative. Staying alive becomes key, and the BIGGEST thing, is the absolute neccessity to build up a reputation on your server, and make friends and allies to help watch your back. IN MY OPINION a good PvP system, with death penalties, is the backbone to building a true server-wide community. It's the only way to truly make people reliant on how other people are willing to treat them.

The sig I have right now, I've been using for a few months on the WoW boards, and quite honestly, I'd say that really sums up the whole thing with WoW's PvP. Without consequence, what's the point? I mean, yeah, it's pretty fun... but why not just play an FPS then? For a continual repeptive zergfest like that with no consequence... A major part of MMOs is a persistant world and character building. And if there aren't at least a few ways to break a character down, the building doesn't mean as much. If losing doesn't hurt, winning doesn't shine.

 

[imported_tribute]

Dying should make you swear

As this thread is doing right now...

 

[Khatib]

As this thread is doing right now...

You mean me? Because I typed up a long post I'm pissed? I would think a place with people who actually write gaming "articles" would understand the concept of someone who can type 80 wpm and has something to say typing up a long post just cause he's got nothin better to do at the time, and that it's interest motivated rather than "nerd rage" motivated. I just enjoy games, so I got a lot to say about em. I'm in between MMOs right now and BF2 only holds me for so long. TV sucks at 3 am... thus, I got plenty of time to type up a post on forums, although like I said, I type fast and they really don't take all that long to type for me anyways.

If it's making you swear cause it's "the same old 'WoW sucks' argument" well I dunno, don't read it? Or read it anyways cause you're bored or can't resist or whatever, and then just bring something contructive to the table afterwards, and hope it doesn't get drowned out by people spamming the same old same old.

 

[Gouka]

:mad: too much text people...damnit, I should read this forum for fun too, these posts are getting out of hand.
Since I'm too lazy to read everything, my extra 2 cents...or whatever.
Without WoW being so succesful, no investers will invest in that many new MMO's, right? And isn't it pretty much the same amount of MMO-players that play some other MMO, then before WoW was ever launched?
I think WoW just sucked in so many new players and investers for the whole MMO-scene, that there can't be anything bad about it being out there. Without the success, there probably wouldn't be a vanguard (or whatever, iunno)...

but, i'm no expert, so I could be completely wrong...

 

[mven]

How do you guys define "hardcore pvp" and "hardcore mmorpg" and what would playing on one of those servers be like?

To me when I think of "hardcore" I think of a difference in ruleset that changes a game significantly to increase the difficulty of play (well when context doesn't associate it with porn anyway). Hardcore mode in diablo 2 where you had to start from scratch, playing an FPS on "nightmare", playing MGS on the highest difficulty so you lose the second you are detected, playing contra with only 3 lives... Etc. I don't necessarily want a "hardcore" MMO per se as I think the things that are usually considered "hardcore" in other games wouldn't really work out that way in the right context.

What I do want in an MMORPG is more meaningful game play. I want to be immersed in a game to the extent where my character is almost an extension of myself. I think things that would foster this are: increased difficulty in game play, dependence on other players, open player vs player conflict, player established in game communities, players actions having an impact on the game world, an evolving world with evolving lore and perhaps even an ongoing backstory, meaningful interaction and involvement with aspects of the lore, etc. I will detail all of this later when I have a bit more time.

As for hardcore PvP, I am more interested in a game where PvP is available as a means to promote things such as reputation, territorial control, politics, etc. I don't really have any interest in PvP for the sake of PvP. Ideal PvP in my opinion is something that allows for player actions to be met with consequences rather than just providing a means of killing one another.

guys, look:

wow is doing for MMOs what Windows did for the PC market, and you can see how many people just LOVE windows.

before windows, there was Unix (I'm generalizing, it's called making a point).

Iso, the difference is with operating systems you have Windows, you have OS-X, and you have 2034823904890238432 different version of UNIX/Linux all available and all currently being developed. In the MMO world you have WoW, and 230482390849023842 different wannabe versions of WoW being developed. If I didn't want to use Windows anymore I could easily download one of the 10 billion linux distributions out there and install it on my PC and have a functional operating system.In the MMO world I am stuck either playing WoW, playing something out of date, or waiting for the next WoW clone to hit the shelves.

I use Windows because it's easy to use and offers the features I desire (i.e. it has the most available video games). The difference is I don't "enjoy" using Windows over Linux. It serves a purpose. When I need to set up a web server, dns server, file server, ftp server, mysql database, etc at work I use Linux because it serves that purpose better than Windows, it's inexpensive, and it's easy to set up. If I had a hardon for geeking out over an operating system then I would definitely run Linux at home as well. Unfortunately no OS I have ever run does it for me the way gaming does. So I am indifferent as to which OS I use and picky about which games I play.

The thing is I am not asking for WoW to be taken down or any of its players to give it up because I don't like it. I am glad WoW is out there, it is obviously a game millions love to play and if it makes them happy playing it more power to them. It's just not for me. I want a new game that isn't WoW. If I wanted to play WoW that is where I'd be. I'm looking at other games because I don't want to play WoW. Yet every new game coming out is doing what they can to appeal to that market. The more they try to appeal to the WoW market the less the game tends to appeal to me. I don't care if you or Mordiceius play WoW and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am not asking you to give that up. I am just annoyed that because of WoW's success I am unlikely to find what I consider to be a good game for many years. *shrug*

Without WoW being so succesful, no investers will invest in that many new MMO's, right? And isn't it pretty much the same amount of MMO-players that play some other MMO, then before WoW was ever launched?

I think WoW just sucked in so many new players and investers for the whole MMO-scene, that there can't be anything bad about it being out there. Without the success, there probably wouldn't be a vanguard (or whatever, iunno)...

This isn't really the case. MMOs have been the "in" thing for game developers long before WoW came out. Subscription based service is any companies wet dream. I do think that the number of games in development has probably increased since WoW's release, and the amount of capital investors are willing to part with for an MMO has probably increased. The interest in the market has always been there. Also keep in mind that the MMO development cycle is typically like 3-5 years so any game that has come out since WoW's release (like Vanguard) or any game coming out this year or next (Warhammer, Age of Conan) was already in development long before WoW was a success. My annoyance is with these games changing their design to appeal to this sudden market boom focused around WoW.

 

[oshin]

I think wow could be alot more interesting if they had some diversification, Maybe a few rallos zek style servers in addition to the normal ones, I know myself though i would feel crucified every time i lost something, but then again it would be hella fun to run around in greens hoping to get lucky and mug some afk raider guy. Hell would freeze over before i would go to any effort to get any nice items on that server tho.

It would be more interesting if you could jump between factions too, not on a whim i guess, but things like that could remove the whole genericness of 5 races, 8 classes and a few armor sets a bit.

And as for hardcore, im always ambiguous about what that really means, I used to be in a "hardcore" guild, 6 nights a week raiding, most horde side first boss kills on the server. Then the guild fell apart and we made a "casual" guild from the remaining guys, and people still played pretty much the same amount (i.e alot), and i thought to myself "what the fucks changed here ?" I guess it was some kinda rejection of schedules or something.

 

[Lesson25]

I am just annoyed that because of WoW's success I am unlikely to find what I consider to be a good game for many years. *shrug*

Out of curiousity: what pre-WoW games do you consider "good"?

 

[mven]

I liked EQ (Pre-Luclin I didn't play much after) more than I liked WoW. Though honestly WoW offers the closest thing to the complete EQ experience of any other mmo. In this I mean things like the fact that attention was paid to detail. Other games like DAoC it's pretty obvious that they were thrown together. The core systems worked well but the game was pretty bland and boring. WoW and EQ both had fairly extensive lore and you can tell their worlds were actually crafted by hand. In other games like DAoC, SWG, AO, L2 etc. you have random mobs and stupid shit standing around the world that makes no sense. I am not saying these games are really terrible either but they are even more lacking than WoW.

Now that I have said that WoW offers the closest thing to the original EQ experience. I will say that it is not the same and the subtleties are important even if somewhat "minor". First off EQ just felt "harder". Not because it took longer to level but because the game was much less forgiving. You had to be on your toes even doing stupid shit way lower level than you. When you had a close moment it actually felt tense. When things get close in WoW I just don't feel the same heart pounding "Oh Shit..". Secondly I know everyone and their mother hates forced grouping however IMO this played a big part in EQ having a more close knit community than WoW. It was possible to solo in EQ it simply wasn't as easy as it was in WoW. Things were so much more tense because if you fucked up it hurt. In some places you might not even be able to recover your body by yourself. Honestly it just "felt" different because of the simplest things.

That being said I don't think EQ was the perfect game either. I just really don't think the direction WoW and successive MMOs have decided to take is something that will lead to a game I am dying to play. I know I could just go back to EQ I geuss but it really wouldn't be the same experience now starting from scratch 102938912839018 expansions in. I guess I might play EQ again if they start up another progression server. Vanguard is okay but it's too much like WoW. *shrug*

 

[Lesson25]

So, if I understood your post correctly, even after you account for the "no game is perfect" factor, the only game you truely enjoyed in the past 10 years was EQ?

I would like to refer you back to the point I made several posts ago: that the existance of WoW has not decreased the liklihood of a new "good game" (whether you are talking about more hardcore or better PvP or fewer bugs or grouping or whatever floats your boat) coming out; instead, it has only increased the liklihood that more generic games will be made similar to its image. These games, IMO, would be flavor-of-the-month type games regardless--similar to how so many generic FPSs resemble CS or how so many generic fighting games resemble Mortal Kombat.

 

[Mordiceius]

I liked EQ (Pre-Luclin I didn't play much after) more than I liked WoW.

mven, do you like playing video games at all, honestly?

From the way you talk about it, it seems like what you want in video games is a magical medieval real life simulator.

It seems like you want a completely non-persistant world.

That is not possible with MMOs right now and I doubt it ever will be.

As for player created content in an MMO world, I don't like that thought. First of all, think of the servers that house thousands of people. There is only so much room and if you have 20k people all wanting to create their own content. I can only take so many hovels that are shaped like penises.

I don't think MMOs will be anything but persistant worlds. If you want a non-persistant world, play a single player game cause that's the only thing that has a single chance of not fucking it up.

 

[dermien]

wow is terrible because you cant make someone a loser in that game, everyone presses a button and gets their epic gear without any effort at all. theres no risk at all. why cant i kill someone and thereby make them lose experience and equipment and then repeatedly kill them on their way back to their corpse?

 

[Mordiceius]

wow is terrible because you cant make someone a loser in that game, everyone presses a button and gets their epic gear without any effort at all. theres no risk at all. why cant i kill someone and thereby make them lose experience and equipment and then repeatedly kill them on their way back to their corpse?

Dear Dermien,

Your post came off as uneducated. A better way of writing that would be as follows:

I think that WoW is a terrible game because there is no way to lose. From what I have seen, it seems like everyone can just press a button to effortlessly get gear. I want a game where when I kill someone they lose experience and items. I also want to be able to corpse camp them all the way on the trip back to their corpse.

Thank you for your time.

Mordiceius/Ketsumei
-Forum Nazi

 

[Ripperjack]

Let me guess--the women you dated, you dated not because they were hawt, but because they were the least ugly and most accessible women you knew at the time.

8-)

Ummm. NO!

If you know anything about me, you would know that I am a 36 year old computer geek virgin, that has NEVER dated anyone before.

Geeze, get with the program!

 

[mven]

So, if I understood your post correctly, even after you account for the "no game is perfect" factor, the only game you truely enjoyed in the past 10 years was EQ?

I would rephrase that as I enjoyed EQ more than any other game from the past 10 years. I didn't hate WoW. Honestly aside from shitty asian MMOs (L2 included) I don't think I *hated* any mainstream MMO. There were some that were much less fun than others but each provided some amusement.

would like to refer you back to the point I made several posts ago: that the existance of WoW has not decreased the liklihood of a new "good game" (whether you are talking about more hardcore or better PvP or fewer bugs or grouping or whatever floats your boat) coming out; instead, it has only increased the liklihood that more generic games will be made similar to its image.

I completely disagree with you here. Games that already had a plan in mind to be different than WoW have gone out of their way even though they were a good ways into their development cycle to make their game more WoWlike. If you doubt this play some Vanguard. Count all of the features that remind you heavily of WoW. Then think about the fact that the majority of these weren't in the game or planned pre-beta3. Unfortunately I don't believe you can go back and read all of the old posts from beta where people were bitching about these changes like mad. If people are doing this to a nearly released game what do you think is happening with games that are already in pre-production? Do you think the companies funding these games are going to be easily inclined to drop 10s of millions of dollars on something risky when they already have a tried and true business model laid out in front of them? Do you maybe think they would have been more inclined to make something different if WoW hadn't already proved "what people want" ? *shrug*

mven, do you like playing video games at all, honestly?

From the way you talk about it, it seems like what you want in video games is a magical medieval real life simulator.

It seems like you want a completely non-persistant world.

That is not possible with MMOs right now and I doubt it ever will be.

and

I don't think MMOs will be anything but persistant worlds. If you want a non-persistant world, play a single player game cause that's the only thing that has a single chance of not fucking it up.

First off, when people refer to a "persistant world" they mean one where the world is up and available 24/7. Where that same world continues turning after they log off and is still available when they log back in. It has nothing to do with terrain modification, player created towns, or plotline changes. You can still have a "persistant world" with players modifying anything and everything. Second Life is a persistant world for example and players can have all of the penis housing they desire.

I am not sure where you are getting that I am asking for crazy things in online gaming?! There is nothing that I posted here or on GWJ (which is where I am assuming you are pulling part of your assumption from) that doesn't already exist in one form or another in existing online games. UO, SWG, Shadowbane, all allow for player built communities. AC1, ATITD, EQ, and even WoW all had plotlines that were advancable by players. Hell I think the seasons changed in AC1 if I remember correctly it's been a while. Difficulty is obviously an easy one you just make shit harder! Dynamicaly created questing is available in EQ, AO, SWG. Open PvP was available in EQ, SB, DaOC, Vanguard, EVE, and others.

These aren't even new games. I am not sure where I am asking for something crazy. All I want is someone to put them all together into something more interesting. I see game companies constantly clammoring on about their MMO being "3rd generation". I don't see it in any of them. The game has to offer more than the same old shit with a card game as an alternate form of advancement or drunken bar room brawling to be 3rd gen in my opinion. Tacking on more instanced PvP zones doesn't make a better PvP game. *shrug*

As for what I like to play I have enjoyed several games over the years. I am not sure where you are getting the idea that I dislike every game. I don't. As I have said before my WoW experience wasn't terrible. It just wasn't what I wanted. I want to see games evolve into something more not become less involved to appease the masses. IMO There should be games made for all types of people. I have never had any interest in playing the Sims so I've never picked it up. Others seem to like it. More power to them. Just because WoW doesn't deliver what I want doesn't mean I think every person who plays it is a sniveling moron. I have many good friends who are quite happy with it. I have just as many if not more who are not. *shrug* I have probably purchased 15 copies of WoW for friends over the past two years to get them to try it out because I know for someone who hasn't played a large number of MMOs it will be a good starting point for them. I see the merit in the things you guys like about WoW and I don't condemn you for liking it. The things you like about it simply don't appeal to me. Is that some sort of a crime?

As for player created content in an MMO world, I don't like that thought. First of all, think of the servers that house thousands of people. There is only so much room and if you have 20k people all wanting to create their own content. I can only take so many hovels that are shaped like penises.

I agree with you to a degree. I don't feel that players are responsible enough to have complete control over their world. I was actually typing up a post on GWJ a couple of days ago in response to someone talking about player created content but I never finished it as too much shit came up at work. I don't want players to have so much control of their world that an individual can flat out ruin the experience of everyone else playing. There have to be limits and constraints but that doesn't mean the players can't have ANY effect. Even your beloved WoW had events that allowed players to have some effect on their world. I'd just like to see this to a greater extent. I also don't want to play a game where the world looks like something out of a bad acid induced wet dream.

Lastly, are you having a bad day or something? Most of your posts in this thread seem more than a little on the hostile side. I'm sorry that you think that my opinion is shit but one of my other hobbies outside of gaming happens to be talking about MMOs on gaming forums. It amuses me so I do so regardless of whether or not other people disagree with me. If you want to strongly disagree with me or tell me to go fuck myself that's fine but really the grammar police thing is uneccesary.

 

[imported_tribute]

You people are C A R A ZY!!! It's not worth getting wound up over, because it's all opinion and no matter what you say people will disagree with you (esp on the interwebs!)

Besides it's like that ancient philosophical picture of the "special" kid that says "Arguing on the internet is like entering the special olympics, you may win but you're still retarded..."

Anyway WoW is a good game because over 8 million people play it, am I right? Well, I mean it must be, obviously...

 

[Mordiceius]

naw mven, it just seems that every post you make about MMOs are talking about how today's MMOs are the end of good gaming as we know it and oh woe is us. :-P

 

[imported_tribute]

mven is really a 90 yo man who hates everything new and only uses a computer because his boss refused to let him keep using an adding machine... or something like that, anyway I'm off to beer it up, it's Friday people! (4:08 PM here)