Question - Do starter points really not matter on fresh tlps?

[Trinost]

I was curious and asked AI about early stats on "select" races, which seem to be better than others. Example: Barbarian rogue vs gnome. AI told me the early stat advantage is not "wasted" stats when they cap out early; it simply means they reach optimal performance slightly sooner, and everyone else catches up.

For me I felt it was the other way around. I felt like it was actually a waste. Each new point after that cap via gear or buffs just went into the void and did nothing. As such I looked at toons going with our example already like the gnome (wood elf, half elf, etc) rogue as ideal since their stats that allows them to preform the best were not being tossed into the void. So I would throw my starter points into something I normally couldn't normally obtain easily like cha for a warrior better DI procs (as dev post said this was the case), agi or dex on an enc / necro for better mitigation, or even cha for a rogue. I know like the last one there is almost no point to it. However, as a rogue some areas I've seen places to sell no one else could go to but the rogue could. Seems like cha might not be too silly and like I said how often can you actually boost it? Everything else is on gear and buffs normally get. Oh and of course I like pre-shrink 100% all the time...

What are your thoughts? Is the AI correct this time? Should rogues always be dwf or barb reaching optimal slightly sooner or is that non-sense and it's wasted stats?

 

[theGreatGizm0]

Leave it defaults.

Click continue.

It matters a bit during classic - Ogre wars will have a marginal advantage for a month or two, because Str and the like are so much higher. But like... it doesn't matter enough to think about.

In a more practical and helpful sense - the pixels and models you want to look for X amount of days, months, years front and center in your screen should have a bigger sway on the stat boosts you get during classic.

 

[kaen01]

put your 10 points or whatever it is in your prime stat, will help you some at level 1 to 10, but with modern geearn its not gonna matter in the end

 

[Cybris]

The only real drawback to large races is fitting through dungeons in Classic before Shrink becomes available. I mean, before you get gear, the stats kinda matter, like Kaen said, useful from like 1-10 maybe through mid 20's by then you should be getting gear to help mostly jewelry. There are hidden racial bonuses as well. Ogres couldn't be stunned from the front. Trolls had a small HP regen. Halflings and Wood Elves get hide and sneak. Once Kunark rolls out iksar have regen and an AC bonus. They also got rid of the exp penealties and bonuses. Used to Trolls, Ogres, Iksar had an exp penalty, Hybrid classes would have a group exp penalty, and Halflings had an exp bonus.

 

[boxbuddy]

Ogre frontal stun immunity is super important for tanks. If you make a shadowknight that isn't an ogre I'd be surprised if people didn't report you for gameplay sabotage lol.
Put all spare points in INT, drop as much as you can for int, be the smartest ogre in ogguk. You'll cap your strength well before level 50 and have plenty of mana to cast spells, uninterrupted thanks to frontal stun immunity .
Other than that, starting stats largely don't matter imo. Understanding class fundamentals will always take you further than any stat will.

 

[microscope]

Pick the most handsome race, Iksar.

 

[InvisigothMT]

Starting stats matter very little. One example of where it does is an Erudite Paladin which is pretty sad on strength.

Racial innates only matter when a race has an innate that gives an edge for a particular class.

Ogre frontal melee stun immunity is good for tanks with the caveat that losing aggro usually doesn't happen just because you're stunned.

Looks and maneuverability in game are really the most important thing, getting stuck on stairs or in doors just sucks and that's why I avoid Ogre's and Gnome's

 

[reedreddington]

The frontal melee stun immunity was debated on another thread. Once aa's are introduced the racial bonuses slide to the side as far as importance. So if you are looking to min/max Velious AOW tanking you would be wise to run an Ogre Tank. Once Luclin drops things start being - whatever - and progress further from there. Early expansions - the stats matter. Later expansions - stats start hitting max with gear and then heroic stats start taking precedence. It has been a minute since I read thru a TLP min/max gear walkthru to remember when things start pushing towards diminishing returns with heroic stats. Not a big deal. Play what you want. But they better be Dark Elves when available......

 

[Trinost]

Starting stats matter very little. One example of where it does is an Erudite Paladin which is pretty sad on strength.

Racial innates only matter when a race has an innate that gives an edge for a particular class.

Ogre frontal melee stun immunity is good for tanks with the caveat that losing aggro usually doesn't happen just because you're stunned.

Looks and maneuverability in game are really the most important thing, getting stuck on stairs or in doors just sucks and that's why I avoid Ogre's and Gnome's

I was told once the reason for ogres frontal melee stun immunity wasn't for the fact of losing aggro, but that you will take less dmg because while stunned you aren't using defensive skills (parry, dodge, etc)

The frontal melee stun immunity was debated on another thread. Once aa's are introduced the racial bonuses slide to the side as far as importance. So if you are looking to min/max Velious AOW tanking you would be wise to run an Ogre Tank. Once Luclin drops things start being - whatever - and progress further from there. Early expansions - the stats matter. Later expansions - stats start hitting max with gear and then heroic stats start taking precedence. It has been a minute since I read thru a TLP min/max gear walkthru to remember when things start pushing towards diminishing returns with heroic stats. Not a big deal. Play what you want. But they better be Dark Elves when available......

I thought with AAs you only get to 75% then I think I recall something about resistance via gear or something? Where it says you shrug off the stun. I forget the details. However, iirc only ogres will ever have 100% frontal.

put your 10 points or whatever it is in your prime stat, will help you some at level 1 to 10, but with modern geearn its not gonna matter in the end

Sorry maybe I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the bonus stats you get for being a certain race over another race. My example was a Barbarian vs Gnome rogue. I wasn't referring to the points you get to distribute. AI told me the early stat advantage is not "wasted" stats when they cap out early; it simply means they reach optimal performance slightly sooner, and everyone else catches up. Where as I felt like the extra str a Barb has when it goes over the 255 cap is a waste if it wouldn't have gone over the cap if I was a gnome. Does this make more sense?

As such which stats wise is actually the better rogue and do others feel like the stats over the cap via buffs or gear is actually a waste?

I was curious what others thought in this regard.

 

[1everdude]

You likely won't be capping stats until Velious, even with full best in slot gear. At that point though, starting stats will not matter much.
Ogre is nice for warriors and SK for the frontal stun immunity, however in Luclin with AAs that advantage goes away.

One thing that can be significant and that will stay with you forever is your origin point. In classic-velious when travel options are limited, having a good origin point can save you hours of travel over a few months. Generally speaking the closer you are to Freeport the more generally convenient your Origin point is, with Erudites really getting the short end of the stick.

There are also quests to consider. Iksar get their class quests which all give very good items; these quests are doable with other races but will require faction work first. Troll shamans have a quest for a snare clicky, iirc. Little things like that aren't huge, but worth considering.

All of that said though, play what you want to play. I always play a human or half elf starting in Qeynos if it's an option because I love Qeynos, other choices be damned. And my guild on Aradune had a Gnome warrior tanking when we downed AoW the first time. At the end of the day it's your character and you're the one who will be playing it. If you being an Ogre vs an Erudite is the difference maker between your guild winning a fight or wiping, find a guild with better players.

 

[madimp]

I thought with AAs you only get to 75% then I think I recall something about resistance via gear or something? Where it says you shrug off the stun. I forget the details. However, iirc only ogres will ever have 100% frontal.

As such which stats wise is actually the better rogue and do others feel like the stats over the cap via buffs or gear is actually a waste?

All Warriors get up to 100% AA stun immunity with Stalwart Endurance, who are the premier tanks for raid targets in Kunark+. In PoP it's only 3 ranks and 75%, but in... I wanna say either Gates or Omens the 4th rank opens up and you hit 100%.

Barbarians make the best rogues early on because Backstab's damage calc runs off Strength, but once you hit Velious gearing every Rogue will be 255+ Str with a little work. Until PoP and the Planar Power AAs, stats over your cap don't matter, and then they only matter as high as you can raise your attribute caps with Planar Power.

There are also quests to consider. Iksar get their class quests which all give very good items; these quests are doable with other races but will require faction work first. Troll shamans have a quest for a snare clicky, iirc. Little things like that aren't huge, but worth considering.

Not for Warrior, though. Pride of the Legion and the entire line are still Iksar-only. All the other class quests are usable by the races that can be those classes, but Warrior gets the shaft.

 

[Trinost]

All Warriors get up to 100% AA stun immunity with Stalwart Endurance, who are the premier tanks for raid targets in Kunark+. In PoP it's only 3 ranks and 75%, but in... I wanna say either Gates or Omens the 4th rank opens up and you hit 100%.

Barbarians make the best rogues early on because Backstab's damage calc runs off Strength, but once you hit Velious gearing every Rogue will be 255+ Str with a little work. Until PoP and the Planar Power AAs, stats over your cap don't matter, and then they only matter as high as you can raise your attribute caps with Planar Power.


Not for Warrior, though. Pride of the Legion and the entire line are still Iksar-only. All the other class quests are usable by the races that can be those classes, but Warrior gets the shaft.

Ah, I didn't know about stalwart endurance taking it up to 100%. That is good to know! So do you think the points over 255 with the barbarians is a waste (via gear or buffs) vs the gnome who can still utilize it longer?

slightly off topic
bonus question food for thought for all: is the barb slam that can stun lower than 55 and interrupt spells better than double shrink of gnome?

I'm personally feeling the slam stun is situational and time limited since only 55 and below. I'm not sure how that plays out when get to live or close to it with 130, but shrink is forever.

 

[madimp]

I don't know about 'utilize it longer' - the two are getting the same amount of stats from the same amount of gear. I think you mean 'is it more valuable to have a low-STR race that can benefit from more STR on gear vs someone who maxes out STR early' and the answer is the same: it doesn't matter for Velious+ content. For Classic, the Barbarian is the superior choice just for the high STR, but the Dwarf has comparable STR and won't struggle moving in some smaller dungeons, and the Gnome will be pushing encumbrance a lot with their low base STR and Chain-level armor.

Last I checked, a Large Race's slam puts Backstab on refresh, and as a Rogue you won't be getting skills in Bash, so you'll only ever do 1 point of damage and it'll miss a ton.