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Question - CWTN Plugins VS KA or RGMercs (1 Viewer)

Killertoxin

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Hello Frens,

I am wondering about MQ2Berzerker, MQ2Cleric and so on. I am currently using KA11 with a bard, warrior, cleric, mage, berzerker. So I have watched Sic's videos on the matter and I was thinking about getting them. However, they are paid premium plugins and to get warrior, cleric and berzerker is about the same as all my eq accounts each month. So to the question.... Why buy these premium plugins ? Are they better then KA11 ? I am leaning towards getting them I just dont want to buy them and wind up not using them because the differences between the two and not significant enough. Any thoughts would be appreciated as they may aleive my indecision.
 
Solution
I use all of my plugins, and like them all, even the ones in development. ;)

Me and Sic are open to suggestions that are both feasible and that will likely be something that can be used to improve general content gameplay as well as trying to add some random features along the way.

While we do have plugins that are considered complete, it's always possible that there is room for improvements to them, and we do constantly add features to all of the plugins that fit for all classes to have them.

There are a few things that stand out as positives for the CWTN plugins as a whole, and aren't class restricted.
Examples:
Class windows - The windows have become a feature of the CWTN Plugins that a lot of people have really anchored to and...

ChatWithThisName

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Oh for sure, on LIVE or any of the higher content it is absolutely amazing. I've message you a few times to figure out the secrets of the snappy engages and a few other things. I would recommend this to anyone who is considering using this in live applications.

On TLP (Rizlona) for group content, perfectly fine. However if you start to get into raiding (By yourself or with others), many users prefer Entropy, Modbots, Mule/Kiss Assist as it has far more customizability than CWTN plugins.

To answer you CWTN - there isn't really a need to get defensive or try to disprove an opinion. Rizlona constant chats with almost anyone who will listen about what to use on it, since every macro/program has its good and bad. Taking a sliver of the CWTN pie - the rogue world - many users use it just for clearing trash, or in group content, however in raids have noticed that they are out of end, out of cooldowns, and pretty much just sitting there doing backstabs without any of the cools on boss fights. When I 30-box, I don't usually look at my rogue, however anytime I was using the plugin I noticed very much the same - my rogue would generally be doing half the damage of my mages, wizards, rangers and monks. I used it for a month before reverting to Kiss Assist as there was far more functionality and performs alot better in doing so. There's alot of chatter and quite frankily, consensus seems to be that CWTN is great on the LIVE side of things.

It's not about being defensive. If you tell people that "on TLP the plugins aren't needed and often problematic" as if you're referring to the whole of the available plugins but you only have a license to use the one class, then it's reasonable for me to question the experience, and it's useful information for a reader to know that you aren't actually using all the plugins and only using one class. If it's based on "chatter" from other users, then I encourage those users to voice their opinions and bring their complaints to the discussion for the individual plugins they have licenses to use. If I'm not aware of user issues then I can't try to accommodate those issues.

With all of that said, I hear what you're saying about rogues. In reference to the complaint of being out of endurance all the time, it's because they use endurance when they do things and there isn't a way to improve endurance regen. The plugins aren't magical and can't produce endurance out of thin air. If you're low on endurance it may be time to take a med break. Later in the game you'll be able to access the breather line and that will enable you to essentially stay in endurance without needing a med break. But this isn't a short coming of the plugins, this is a short coming of the class itself.

The plugins aren't kissassist, or modbot etc. So yes, they do not work the same way and 100% lack the customization of those options. But it also means you don't have to keep an INI updated etc as you level up. You don't need to understand conditions to operate the character at a higher level, such as having to setup your own burn conditions for specific abilities to tell the plugin to do things in a certain order etc. I mention that in my original post https://www.redguides.com/community/threads/premium-plugins-vs-ka11.73208/post-422615

I do have characters on Rizlona. I have them specifically for testing for the TLP's, however it's not my primary server. I do focus live heavily, but if a user has an issue on Rizlona or any other non-truebox TLP then they are 100% welcome to voice those issues in the discussion thread so that we can discuss the ways either around the issue they are facing with existing settings, or by implementing more settings that allow for the issue to be resolved without adding too much fluff to the plugins. Someone had an issue with rogue on TLP for example and we added ExeIsBurn checkbox, which 100% is designed for lower level/TLP characters to keep them from using up all their abilities that is considered a "burn" at that stage of the game. So if you have more suggestions, 100% swing by the discussion thread for rogue and post your issue, get your friends to post as well since reproduction of issues and collaboration from other users of the software are what get the attention needed to make issues a priority to fix. We do try to handle issues as they come in. When someone posts an issue we make sure to load up the character and try to reproduce the issue, and if we're able to reproduce it we make adjustments that typically go out the following patch.

Also as Sic mentioned, we don't advertise the plugins beyond announcing that we've posted an open beta for a new plugin, or posting updates for the changes made to the plugins. Everything else is word of mouth, so it's in our best interest to address issues as they are presented or people will stop suggesting it to others. So when someone suggested AGAINST using the plugins, it's only natural that I investigate why it is they are saying the things they are saying so that if there is an issue that can be accommodated that it can be addressed and we can move forward with the recommending it to other people thing again. :-)
 
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It's not about being defensive. If you tell people that "on TLP the plugins aren't needed and often problematic" as if you're referring to the whole of the available plugins but you only have a license to use the one class, then it's reasonable for me to question the experience, and it's useful information for a reader to know that you aren't actually using all the plugins and only using one class. If it's based on "chatter" from other users, then I encourage those users to voice their opinions and bring their complaints to the discussion for the individual plugins they have licenses to use. If I'm not aware of user issues then I can't try to accommodate those issues.

With all of that said, I hear what you're saying about rogues. In reference to the complaint of being out of endurance all the time, it's because they use endurance when they do things and there isn't a way to improve endurance regen. The plugins aren't magical and can't produce endurance out of thin air. If you're low on endurance it may be time to take a med break. Later in the game you'll be able to access the breather line and that will enable you to essentially stay in endurance without needing a med break. But this isn't a short coming of the plugins, this is a short coming of the class itself.

The plugins aren't kissassist, or modbot etc. So yes, they do not work the same way and 100% lack the customization of those options. But it also means you don't have to keep an INI updated etc as you level up. You don't need to understand conditions to operate the character at a higher level, such as having to setup your own burn conditions for specific abilities to tell the plugin to do things in a certain order etc. I mention that in my original post https://www.redguides.com/community/threads/premium-plugins-vs-ka11.73208/post-422615

I do have characters on Rizlona. I have them specifically for testing for the TLP's, however it's not my primary server. I do focus live heavily, but if a user has an issue on Rizlona or any other non-truebox TLP then they are 100% welcome to voice those issues in the discussion thread so that we can discuss the ways either around the issue they are facing with existing settings, or by implementing more settings that allow for the issue to be resolved without adding too much fluff to the plugins. Someone had an issue with rogue on TLP for example and we added ExeIsBurn checkbox, which 100% is designed for lower level/TLP characters to keep them from using up all their abilities that is considered a "burn" at that stage of the game. So if you have more suggestions, 100% swing by the discussion thread for rogue and post your issue, get your friends to post as well since reproduction of issues and collaboration from other users of the software are what get the attention needed to make issues a priority to fix. We do try to handle issues as they come in. When someone posts an issue we make sure to load up the character and try to reproduce the issue, and if we're able to reproduce it we make adjustments that typically go out the following patch.

Also as Sic mentioned, we don't advertise the plugins beyond announcing that we've posted an open beta for a new plugin, or posting updates for the changes made to the plugins. Everything else is word of mouth, so it's in our best interest to address issues as they are presented or people will stop suggesting it to others. So when someone suggested AGAINST using the plugins, it's only natural that I investigate why it is they are saying the things they are saying so that if there is an issue that can be accommodated that it can be addressed and we can move forward with the recommending it to other people thing again. :-)

I absolutely appreciate this response. My confidence in CWTN and the respective plugins hasn't wavered - they are great. I am also glad to hear that you are willing to work with people's concerns or issues to implement changes; I can't disagree with the shortcomings of the class, as it brings another layer to code against until endurance regen is thing. I will encourage others to speak out and post on the forums. What is the best method to make suggestions - I oft hear from people that suggestions aren't taken nicely, and are often turned away as it's seen as a "Customization" - maybe if I directed these with issues to the right away it may help in collaboration.
 

ChatWithThisName

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I absolutely appreciate this response. My confidence in CWTN and the respective plugins hasn't wavered - they are great. I am also glad to hear that you are willing to work with people's concerns or issues to implement changes; I can't disagree with the shortcomings of the class, as it brings another layer to code against until endurance regen is thing. I will encourage others to speak out and post on the forums. What is the best method to make suggestions - I oft hear from people that suggestions aren't taken nicely, and are often turned away as it's seen as a "Customization" - maybe if I directed these with issues to the right away it may help in collaboration.

The plugins are absolutely intended to be "turn on and forget" however, early game is odd. There wasn't a lot of efficient "lines" of abilities and was in general all over the place. Someone may suggest one thing, and we may shoot down their idea, but implement another method of handling the issue. If at all possible I want things to be automatically detected, and adjusted for on the fly without the user needing to hit a special checkbox so that things continue to "just work". So while it may seem like a simple checkbox would correct an issue, I would actually prefer to handle the situation without a checkbox or something that the user needs to customize. If it wasn't for all the shenanigans early levels of every class I'd literally have every plugin done and released. I use plugins for all 16 classes because they're all over 85. But we take a TON of extra time trying to mitigate issues with lower level characters so that they do work with TLP's and at every level on live as well. (Yes, even the infamous bard). Speaking of bard. That's probably one of the more annoying classes to handle because everything about a bard at lower levels is special in it's own way.

With that said, it's possible you post an issue, and we either suggest a way around the obstacle you're faced with, or we don't like the idea and don't feel that it's something necessary for the majority of users and adding something special just because one user would like it to do a thing for a special situation that only comes up for one fight in one expansion. Regarding raiding is specifically where we usually end up saying "Sorry, we don't have plans to implement a feature like that" because in most cases the suggestions fit the criteria for some special use case that can be handled in another way with another plugin/macro/event/etc and as useful as it may appear to be for the class plugins to have all the special situations coded directly into them, it's also a lot of work with limited use cases. So keep in mind that making the suggestion does not mean the suggestion will be implemented. Any issues reported will be investigated and if the issue can be reproduced we will go out of our way to fix the issue if it's within our abilities to do so.

Also, I don't always respond personally to a post, but me and Sic discuss every issue brought up. If he responds that we're not implementing something, then we've actually either already discussed it in the past, or we discussed it when the issue was brought up before the response was made. So if Sic responds then coming to me will result in the same response.
 
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I have personally used CWTN plugins in raid form on live (i wont play TLP as its ancient and past its time, so is just a money grab) and have never had a issue with any of them in raid. i set them for raid, and for what i want them doing in the raid them put them where i want them and let them roll. Ive had war MT a TBL and a ROS raid. Tried a TOV but my war wasnt geared good enough for it at the time. I use the SK to OT/MA alot
 

Knightly

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I think tone plays a large part in this. I read your post as defensive as well. And, although reading it that way does skew my bias for this statement, I feel it’s still true: I don’t think it’s a minority opinion that you both often come off as defensive for anything perceived as criticism (constructive or otherwise). However, I also don’t think that’s particularly intentional. You can look at the class threads to see people often cowering and apologizing when asking questions which is generally a sign of this, and I see you fall to the same method you used above which basically boils down to: “You’re not qualified to make that statement and here’s the data as to why.” Regardless of whether the statement is correct or incorrect, it makes you harder to approach.

I understand where you’re coming from, you want to combat misinformation about your plugins. And, as you said, you can’t fix a problem you don’t know about. But tone plays a large part in eliciting that feedback in a way that people don’t feel like they need to grovel in order to make a request.

All of that said, the primary issue here is probably that low levels on TLPs do require a level of customization. It’s not the same as those classes on Live at low levels because mechanics, while based on Live, aren’t the same on TLPs. So you have multiple scenarios to account for if you’re trying to solve in that niche. You can’t, for example, take a level 65 character on Live, tune it, and just remove the missing spells from the different eras to end up with a good build for TLP. The endurance conversation is a perfect example of this: A player makes decisions to conserve when conservation is required. That’s not due to a shortcoming of the class or the gear (although gear will certainly help you overcome the need for that) it’s that things like out of combat regen come in later eras that make conservation less needed or even unnecessary. There are tons of fundamental differences on TLP even at overlapping levels with Live.

Further compounding that is that the meta of the game and classes changes as expansions are released. Some of this does have to do with AAs and spells, which can be accounted for as CWTN does by checking what is missing. But some of it is also how classes interact with each other, which is harder to adapt to. So it ends up being programming for (right now 5) different scenarios that all play differently: Live regular play, Low Level Live, Low Level TLP, TLP as it approaches Live, and to a lesser extent Emu.

Of course, the more people say “Hey, this doesn’t work quite right on TLP” the more likely it is to get fixed. I think a big issue though is the majority of people using the CWTN plugins don’t know what or why it doesn’t quite work right (just that something is going on) so it becomes an exercise in articulation that becomes difficult. And, of course, being on the receiving end of that is frustrating because you don’t even know where to look when something is that vague.

None of that is to say that it can’t be fixed, just adding some perspective for everyone.
 
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I currently use Chats Cleric, Eskay, Zerker, and Enc. I love all of them even though I rarely play my SK. I am planning on getting Bst once i get him to 115. I personally didn't like the shaman one, I found the KA version that I had worked better for me. No point in paying $20 to have more OH Sh*t healing moments. I think that is why I now play with an out of group cleric for normal stuff. I tried the mage out when it was being tested. I tried to run 4 mages, an enc and clr group but I was having issues with assisting since there was no tank and it felt clunky so I stopped playing that group and really haven't play my mages since so no point buying that one. Overall though I must say Chat made a useful ability and polished it and made it better so he deserves to get some money for his work.
 

ChatWithThisName

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I currently use Chats Cleric, Eskay, Zerker, and Enc. I love all of them even though I rarely play my SK. I am planning on getting Bst once i get him to 115. I personally didn't like the shaman one, I found the KA version that I had worked better for me. No point in paying $20 to have more OH Sh*t healing moments. I think that is why I now play with an out of group cleric for normal stuff. I tried the mage out when it was being tested. I tried to run 4 mages, an enc and clr group but I was having issues with assisting since there was no tank and it felt clunky so I stopped playing that group and really haven't play my mages since so no point buying that one. Overall though I must say Chat made a useful ability and polished it and made it better so he deserves to get some money for his work.

We later added support to make the mage the MA and group members considered their pet the MA instead of the character. Have you tried it since that change was made? If not, it's available on test if you want to give it another spin and see if the alteration would change the way you feel about mage.
 
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Currently, I am running necromancer, rogue, berserker, enchanter and wife plays healer.

Currently, the rogue and berserker dps is extremely low using MQ2Melee.

Questions:
1. Has anyone swapped from MQ2Melee to the MQ2Berserker and/or MQ2Rogue?
2. How did the DPS differ, if so?
3. Last commit was March 2021, is MQ2Melee still evolving?
4. Does MQ2Berserker / MQ2Rogue with mq2next?
5. Will ChatWithThisName give it to me for free, at least for a trial run, because I am such an awesome guy?

Request:
For MQ2Melee, documentation on configuring specific classes in outdated and sparse (and not in the actual git repo). If MQ2Melee is still in evolving, can we add some info to include class-specific ini configs, either in the git wiki or documented in the README?
 
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Currently, I am running necromancer, rogue, berserker, enchanter and wife plays healer.

Currently, the rogue and berserker dps is extremely low using MQ2Melee.

Questions:
1. Has anyone swapped from MQ2Melee to the MQ2Berserker and/or MQ2Rogue?
2. How did the DPS differ, if so?
3. Last commit was March 2021, is MQ2Melee still evolving?
4. Does MQ2Berserker / MQ2Rogue with mq2next?
5. Will ChatWithThisName give it to me for free, at least for a trial run, because I am such an awesome guy?

Request:
For MQ2Melee, documentation on configuring specific classes in outdated and sparse (and not in the actual git repo). If MQ2Melee is still in evolving, can we add some info to include class-specific ini configs, either in the git wiki or documented in the README?
1. Yes it’s much better than just melee
2. Drastically better with cwtn
3. Not sure
4. Yes they work with next
5. You can /testcopy and play there for free
 
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the CWTN family is an awesome general use, plug and play solution. I use all but the monk one (no monks) and am incredibly happy with them. I will pause them for certaint things, because they are plug and play, if your trying to race orcs on pogo sticks, while mezzing griffins, its not gonna be great.

That being said, you say your running MQ2Melee.. if thats ALL your running, but cost is a consideration, check out KissAssist, RGMerc, MAUI, or XGen. all free and for the most part HIGHLY customizable automation solutions. :)
 
Last edited:
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Currently, I am running necromancer, rogue, berserker, enchanter and wife plays healer.

Currently, the rogue and berserker dps is extremely low using MQ2Melee.

Questions:
1. Has anyone swapped from MQ2Melee to the MQ2Berserker and/or MQ2Rogue?
2. How did the DPS differ, if so?
3. Last commit was March 2021, is MQ2Melee still evolving?
4. Does MQ2Berserker / MQ2Rogue with mq2next?
5. Will ChatWithThisName give it to me for free, at least for a trial run, because I am such an awesome guy?

Request:
For MQ2Melee, documentation on configuring specific classes in outdated and sparse (and not in the actual git repo). If MQ2Melee is still in evolving, can we add some info to include class-specific ini configs, either in the git wiki or documented in the README?
Hey!
Try RGmercs

 
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Questions:
1. Yes for both
2. Higher DPS, faster response time, easy to control
3. No idea
4. Yes
5. Nope, but that's not my call so I really can't say.

We run all of CWTN's plugins on all available classes for every member of our guild. They are easy to control and that is critical when raiding. It just works right out of the box. there is practically no maintenance that needs to be done by you ever. The only updates you have to keep up on are the clickies you want to add or remove. Which can be done in game with a command by holding the item on your cursor.
 
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Thanks all, i appreciate the feedback. I will look at RGMerc, and also consider using CWTN's stuff if that doesn't cut it.

The only hesitation i have is not the $, but i prefer to work with source code i can inspect and compile myself. But knowing CWTN plugins work with mqnext is helpful
 
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Hey all. I wanted to start trying out the cwtn plugins, as I am now using RGMercs. But my question is.... what is the difference exactly? With RGMercs, it seems to auto play the classes quite nicely choosing spells on it's own based on level, as well as perform strategies for play. As I have read about the plugins, they basically do the same thing. So, what differences can I expect between the two? Are the plugins just more refined? Any info would be helpful!

EDIT: To bring clarity to my question. Why would someone use a plugin over the Macro if the only thing they hope to accomplish is running a character as a mercenary as it were?
 
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both are great products... RGmercs, with a lil work lets you dig in and change things,, CWTN are controlled code, and im sure a smart person could highjackit , they give you a here, level 1-120 weve done the math and stacked it up, do this.. if you cant (didnt buy spells or missing AA's)... we got you still!... both are great products, if you have a unique playstyle or do off the wall stuff.. cwtn is good.. RGmercs can go in and make it do stuff
 
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Hey all. I wanted to start trying out the cwtn plugins, as I am now using RGMercs. But my question is.... what is the difference exactly? With RGMercs, it seems to auto play the classes quite nicely choosing spells on it's own based on level, as well as perform strategies for play. As I have read about the plugins, they basically do the same thing. So, what differences can I expect between the two? Are the plugins just more refined? Any info would be helpful!

EDIT: To bring clarity to my question. Why would someone use a plugin over the Macro if the only thing they hope to accomplish is running a character as a mercenary as it were?
Performance and ease of play. Personal opinion, i'd never play eq anymore without mq2enchanter/mq2cleric
 
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Performance and ease of play. Personal opinion, i'd never play eq anymore without mq2enchanter/mq2cleric
Since I seem to never run without these two classes in my group, I will no doubt give these a try!

Doc James - best bet is to load them up on Test and try for free.
I understand I could do that. However, I always like to gain some insight first before spending time doing something like that before investing play time. If I am intrigued enough, I will test them. So as it stands I have enough info to want to go ahead and try two of them right now. Thank you for your input!
 
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CWTN Plugins are RGMercs on steroids. The plugins kick it up a notch or more. I started with RGMercs then went to KissAssist for better tweaking. Finally I took the plunge and invested in MQ2EsKay. That sold me and I eventually acquired MQ2Enchanter, MQ2Cleric, MQ2Mage, and MQ2Bst. The acquisitions were spaced over a couple of months. I am glad I did. Sic mode is what sold me on it for my tank. It is a semi-automatic mode whereby you can roam away from camp to manually pull mobs and then hit the return hotkey to automatically run back to camp and start tanking once back home. Watch Sic's vids for War and EsKay. You can always test them out on test server even with level 1 toons.

Be well. Happy automating.
 

ChatWithThisName

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As Hytiek said. They are free on test. Can just do a /testcopy on your live toons. Then log them all into the test server. RG has a test server version of macroquest that comes with all the plugins that have been released. So you can try them as much as you like and decide for yourself.
 
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Having never used RGMercs, I can't really speak to it. But I can say what I like about the CWTN plugins in comparison to KA, which is another macro-based tool.

1) Responsiveness. The KA macro just can't seem to respond as quickly. Don't know is this is because its a macro, or design. The CWTN plugins react almost instantly - no waiting 10 seconds for DPS to jump in, or Mage to fire a nuke.
2) Its a plug-in. So I can use macros at the same time. Want to run overseer? No problem. Have your own macro you use in some situations. No problem. This is less of an issue with more and more Lua's becoming available. But still a big plus for me.
3) UI. And consistent UI. Want to add an ignore. Easy. Want to change a setting temporarily? Done. Want to see what the plugin is casting. You get it. In its own window.
4) The /xxx missing command. QoL improvement. When leveling up a team, its easy to lose track. This doesn't tell you all the spells you are missing. Just the one's you need.
5) No INI files. 'nuff said.

This is not intended as a dig on KA. It is awesome, and runs my bard like a champ. Just that CWTN might do it just a bit better (eventually...).
 

Sic

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Both do class stuff for the classes they do stuff for. Some of it comes down to how the programmers of them decided to do things.

Like chat mentioned the plugins we have available atm, are available on test with your VV lvl 2 sub. Try em out and see if you like them.

Since we've made most of the choices for you, there are much fewer options, and choices, and decisions you have to or can make. Pros and cons - they're not for everyone and that is fine.

Lots of good automation options. Try em and make up your mind

Please see >>> Getting Started with CWTN plugins! (Movement, UI Window, Clickies, Pulling, ETC) Check Here First! <<<
 

Sic

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there are several similar duplicate threads where people have shared a lot of information - i merged them into this thread.

definitely make sure to take time to search for similar questions and check out similar threads, down the bottom of a thread there is a "Similar Threads" suggestion area which is pretty cool - a natural occurrence of people responding to things is that after answering a similar questions, some of the "let me write a novel" instead turns into "yeah that's cool". check out some of the conversations above where people are sharing their experiences and cwtn and i posting info and such.

happy hunting!
 
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Hey all. I wanted to start trying out the cwtn plugins, as I am now using RGMercs. But my question is.... what is the difference exactly? With RGMercs, it seems to auto play the classes quite nicely choosing spells on it's own based on level, as well as perform strategies for play. As I have read about the plugins, they basically do the same thing. So, what differences can I expect between the two? Are the plugins just more refined? Any info would be helpful!

EDIT: To bring clarity to my question. Why would someone use a plugin over the Macro if the only thing they hope to accomplish is running a character as a mercenary as it were?
 
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In a situation where you are dying over and over and over and over - the Plugin is the only thing that can keep track of what the hell is happening.

I use both KA and RGMercs in this sort of environment and both seem to fail after multiple deaths and need a restart. Even the CWTN plugins can forget which mob we are fighting after death - but a re-target is all that is needed and the plugin is back in the game.

I do love the customization that KA can give - if you really know your class - then KA is a must - but it does do some annoying things like trying to attack vendors.

One thing I can say - Use MQ2BOXR to get all the flavors working the same. I love it!
 

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