Toast - Kissassist does significantly less DPS than you manually pressing attack

[MaxD]

Well, that's partly because you chose a Beastlord - you can't really effectively box melee without MQ2. Almost all melee I know that do good DPS, depend on MQ2melee or some other fast attacking MQ2 plugin/macro. I have tried doing good DPS on a melee character by manually attacking and it's a bloody nightmare, I agree 100%.

The argument isn't that you can play better than Kissassist (although I do think you can; that's not the basis of this argument), it's that you can do more damage than Kissassist by manually attacking, manually popping your burns when needed. You can let KISS do everything else, so long as you manually attack and manually pop burns you WILL notice a BIG dps increase. With melee, popping your burns manually and not depending on Kissassist will give you a massive DPS increase since Melee burns are so short and Kissassist pops them slow as fuuuuuuuuuck. Some of my Beastlord's burns only last 30 seconds, Kissassist takes at lesat 10 seconds to pop all of my burns which means 1/3 of my burns are completely wasted.

For classes like Beastlords/Berserkers/Bards - I guess the best advice I could give to improve your DPS is depend more on MQ2melee than Kissassist, unless Kissassist attacks faster with conditions as Eqmule said. I don't use melee characters on my box team because they suck so badly when playing them with Kissassist and I am too lazy/retarded to setup MQ2melee.

Actually, my beastlord performs very well on KISS other than burns which are kinda slow to fire.

Really though Lurk, I think you're missing one of the biggest factors of KISS (keep it simple stupid). Kiss has the advantage of being a VERY flexible macro useable for any class. I think class specific macros are the way to go, I want to make my own macro for my beastlord when I get off my ass but I don't intend for it to be flexible like kiss is. It won't have pet tanking or healing (beastords don't have a combat worthy heal for emergencies) and it will only do level 110.

With kiss I can spend 10 minutes with any class at any level and get them kinda to mostly doing their job.

Kiss is in development and is constantly getting better, there's a pretty good jump from kiss10 to kiss11 in speed

 

[Maskoi]

You are a troll that just likes to hear himself talk.

Your entire post is flawed. No one macros one character.

1. Spend any amount of money on hardware you want to.
2. Box 6 characters manually.
3. Then run those same 6 characters in the same scenario running Kiss with a normal ini no conditons

Kiss DPS will be far greater in any battle.

The numbers in your examples are pure fantasy.

/GU A stoneglare cockatrice in 81s, 2201k @27177 | ManualWizard 958k | KissassistWizard 930k | Tank + pets 191k
I went to lceanium just now to kill that same mob

Tank grabs mob total fight 16s. 6s to get to 98% when party engages



My wiz total fight 9 secs.



Mage dps tossed in 10s



81s to kill and Eok stoneglare cockatrice? My level 110 group killed this in under 16s.

So how fucked up is your group it took a minute and a half to kill the stoneglare cockatrice.

What level are your wizards?
How many aas do they have?
What gear do the have?
What are teh classes in this group?
How many total toons were in the group.

What is the exact spell rotation you did manually.
Post the ini file you came up with to duplicate what you were doing manually.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

1. Spend any amount of money on hardware you want to.
2. Box 6 characters manually.
3. Then run those same 6 characters in the same scenario running Kiss with a normal ini no conditons

Kiss DPS will be far greater in any battle.

This is silly. No one who uses Kissassist has ever out DPS'd me or my friends who 6 box nor anyone that I have ever met.... and I actually talk to boxers who raid and 6 box in RoI/high end guilds. On both the TLPs and FV. Even Eqmule knows a 54 boxer who boxes on Lockjaw (whom he likes to say he developed EQwire for), guess what that boxer didn't use while raiding? Kissassist.

If what you said were true, everyone here would use Kissassist at all times for everything. They clearly don't and if Kissassist did as good of DPS as a real player then there would be no reason for someone like Razkle to make EOKnuke or the zerker macro or any other class macro that's been made. Those macros were made because Kissassist under performs in DPS. It's an amazing macro, as I have said dozens of times I am just being realistic with its DPS in comparison to what a real player can do. There's plenty of evidence out there backing up my claims that's right in front of you - people just refuse to see it because they're thinking emotionally instead of with facts. It's a common thing I run into in this world and maybe one day I will learn it's better not to engage with these people. People too often say I am "trolling" when I engage.

The truth is, I don't even think many of the kiss devs know what good DPS is. I can tell none of you raid and none of you have ever sat in front of a target dummy testing rotations. Or have googled what makes a good rotation for a Wizard. You bash my INI files, which I know suck btw cause I don't use Kissassist when I actually play the game and I also haven't "actually" played the game in over a year, I have relied entirely on Kissassist because I am lazy and bad (I admit that)... but at the same time you use Pyroblade on your Wizards and act like you do know how to play the class. You don't even talk to people who are in top end guilds/know how to play their classes to learn how to play. You probably don't even know what your classes DPS can achieve when pushed to its max or what the highest DPS class is currently. EQ is a game built around min/maxing, if you're going to argue about DPS you have to know these things. Right now, you're coming to the table completely unprepared and with no idea what you're even talking about and you're trying to tell me that I am completely off base and wrong.

If you actually care about this subject and you want to do more than just insult me - google and learn. Find a good guild that does good DPS and check their rotation.

Here is a good start:

http://valhallah.org/parsing/Tactic/9-10-2018 Overthere.html#

http://valhallah.org/parsing/Tactic/9-10-2018 Hoshkar.html#

Read what abilities the highest DPS classes use of each class. You'll learn what makes a good rotation. Some of these players are extremely good and also play in RoI. They are good baselines for what you should strive to achieve in terms of DPS output for your class.

What level are your wizards?
How many aas do they have?
What gear do the have?
What are teh classes in this group?
How many total toons were in the group.

You are right about one thing, my test was stupid and I did it at a stupid time (when gamparse was broke). I'm an idiot, I should have waited a few weeks because I would have avoided so much drama. I learned a lot which was very helpful though...

I'm not going to give people a reason to doubt me next time, I am going to recreate the test in multiple scenarios (mostly raids; 1 computer will box 18 and my main comp will box 36 - I am even putting myself at a disadvantage with boxing more since Isboxer sends keypresses slower to this many clients). I am going to use multiple different INIs with conditions and without and I am even going to test it on different computers and with/without Isboxer running. And instead of just posting parses I am going to upload the entire HTML file to my website of the fight so you can see spells cast and EVERYTHING that happened throughout. Therefore people can dig into the evidence as much as they'd like. I think that's the best way. I'll just have to deal with exposing all of my character names.

There will be no argument then and doubting the evidence. I did a hack job this time with posting the parses and I gave people too many reasons to pick apart my tests (most of the reasons were silly and missing the point entirely, like suggesting my rotation is bad or my INI was to blame...). I should have saw it coming but, sadly, I am not perfect. I failed this time.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Really though Lurk, I think you're missing one of the biggest factors of KISS (keep it simple stupid). Kiss has the advantage of being a VERY flexible macro useable for any class. I think class specific macros are the way to go, I want to make my own macro for my beastlord when I get off my ass but I don't intend for it to be flexible like kiss is. It won't have pet tanking or healing (beastords don't have a combat worthy heal for emergencies) and it will only do level 110.

No, I understand how versatile and flexible Kissassist is. People keep twisting my words and assuming I am trying to attack Kissassist or speak bad of it. I don't know how many times I have to virtue signal and say I fucking love Kissassist. I'm just being realistic with what it is capable of. I don't know why we need to put Kissassist on some magic pedastle and assume it's the best thing ever in all areas and if you doubt that you're an idiot and wrong.

 

[MaxD]

Kissassist on some magic pedastle and assume it's the best thing ever in all areas and if you doubt that you're an idiot and wrong.

I say unless you want to put hundreds of hours into making your own macro kiss is magic on a pedestal.

The problem with your post is you're posting wrong.


A good post would be I pressed x y and z and this is my kiss ini when I do it manually its 10% better whats wrong with my kiss ini and what can I do to improve it.

A different good post from you would be, "I noticed when I tell my beastlord to burn the burn section fires slow, here's a short video of what I'm talking about"


If you're not specific then how is the macro creator (for any macro) supposed to address your issue

 

[B_I_G__D_A_D_D_Y]

I also think KISS is good magic. It does many things well including DPS. It's not perfect but it plays my characters to a higher level of utilization than I ever could. I think the whole thread is silly.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I say unless you want to put hundreds of hours into making your own macro kiss is magic on a pedestal.
The problem with your post is you're posting wrong.

I don't put anything on a pedestal - I treat everything equally. The fact that so many people put Kissassist on a pedestal is why we're even having this argument. Half the people came out and said, "yea it's common sense it does less DPS" and the other half of people attacked me, my post and everything I did. Clearly there's a double standard going on.

The problem is you and many others are misunderstanding my post entirely. You *assume* I mean one thing when I don't at all. Like below:

A good post would be I pressed x y and z and this is my kiss ini when I do it manually its 10% better whats wrong with my kiss ini and what can I do to improve it.

A different good post from you would be, "I noticed when I tell my beastlord to burn the burn section fires slow, here's a short video of what I'm talking about"

These are posts implying that it's only a problem I have - when it isn't. You're just picking apart my post in any way you can like others.

If you're not specific then how is the macro creator (for any macro) supposed to address your issue

It's not an issue I have, it's how the macro is designed. I am not asking for the issue fixed because I really do not care if it is or not. What I care about is whether or not people understand the difference between actually playing and botting and clearly many people still don't. That's partly my fault, I fucked up explaining myself as well as I should have in this post. I will remedy that in the future though

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I also think KISS is good magic. It does many things well including DPS. It's not perfect but it plays my characters to a higher level of utilization than I ever could. I think the whole thread is silly.

Again, EQ is a game built around min/maxing if we're going to have discussions about playing well at high end, people need to accept the obvious facts - which is you can do significantly more DPS than kissassist can by manually popping burns and manually hitting the attack button. It's really not that complicated or even hard to do but yet everyone is so hesitant to even try it. Anyone here can play a 6 box better than Kissassist can, you just need to spend time setting it up and practicing.

It's silly that so many people think this discussion isn't worth having. If you don't want to be good or improve, then ok why even bother tossing your opinion in? Why not let people who want to improve have the discussion? It's like me showing up to a Hooty and the Blowfish concert only to shout, "I REALLY DON'T LIKE YOUR MUSIC" - Why even bother going, why not let people enjoy what they enjoy doing?

Until the last two or three posts I never said anything bad about KISS or the people who used it, If you want to use Kissassist and play the game that way, that's your call. It's 100% up to you how you want to play EQ. I'm not knocking it, I primarily play with Kissassist only these days too. I'm in the same boat as yall.

However, where we differ in opinion is I am not just going to sit there and be content with subpar DPS and refuse to explore new avenues and new ideas. That's absolutely ridiculous to the point of stupidity. This is the exact reason so many people in this thread believe KISS does baller DPS and you can't play better than it. Because everyone is too afraid to explore new ideas and break out of their comfort zone. To say this thread is silly is fucking idiotic because it implies that exploring new ideas and trying new things is silly.

I'll close the thread since I am tired of retarded replies questioning why someone would even try new things. I'll make another post once I have the evidence I need to shut everyone up.