Evolution (1 Viewer)

[alucard]

But based on our own rules of science the chances of evolution is like a monkey pounding on a keyboard for a billion years and by accident producing Shakespeares play Hamlet.

Incorrect, it is more like a bunch of moneky's typing and all the giberish being thrown out. Over time the plays with basic sentances remain, and they slowly are replaced by paragraphs, and eventually a book is created. Whether an editor watched over the process of the book or not is still heavily debated.

 

[Roguish]

But based on our own rules of science the chances of evolution is like a monkey pounding on a keyboard for a billion years and by accident producing Shakespeares play Hamlet.

Or.. that this happened twice, both in the same thirty or so year period of time, one being male, and one being female, and they grew up and figured out how to do the dinky winky before one of them died.

 

[BlackObsidian]

I hate this phrase with a vengeance. It's nothing but creationist bullshit based on the fact that "there's simply no other way" for things to be the way they are than some omniscient imaginary being.

 

[Ccomp5950]

Sex follows Abiogenesis very closely in the difficulties for the goo to you via the zoo theory. However you have to understand not all organisms are asexual or sexual, some are both. Hense the necissary jump to become fully sexually reproductive organism does not require one large jump but can occur in a spurt.

Evolution in asexual species through mutations of random genes is a lot more dangerious then that of sexual organisms which can add in a safety barrier through mixing genes.

Asexual evolution = Copy of a copy of a copy of a copy with hopefully a GOOD mutation and not a bad one.

Sexual evolution = low level quality control of mutations, which doesn't sound all that great but is a huge advantage over the asexual type.

But as for the stupid phrases, it fits on both sides of the debate, evolutionist (the religion of goo to you via the zoo) just have an easier time due to the stereotype of blind faith on the part of their opponents, but the truth is both sides revert to faith of some kind. The evolutionist just stick to a faith in things of the natural universe discounting anything supernatural.

Evolution is a fact. Things change.

Evolution is a theory. Goo to you via the zoo.

 

[TSPlayer62]

In billions of years of evolution, your theory has already been foiled in my opinion the second law of thermodynamics would have deteriorated so much by now its ridiculous, and creationism is not just "blind faith" there are a lot of facts that actually support the idea of an intelligent designer in science and a lot of scientists are even giving up on the theory of evolution, that went to notorious schools of education http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

 

[BlackObsidian]

In billions of years of evolution, your theory has already been foiled in my opinion the second law of thermodynamics would have deteriorated so much by now its ridiculous

This of course assumes that the law is correct. In actual fact though, all science is open to being proven as incorrect by using other methods of "proof". The second law may indeed be incorrect.

and creationism is not just "blind faith" there are a lot of facts that actually support the idea of an intelligent designer in science and a lot of scientists are even giving up on the theory of evolution, that went to notorious schools of education http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/

So other than a mish-mashed book created from two thousand years of "telephone/chinese whispers" which has been creatively edited, changed, tweaked and mutated into something which probably wasn't intended... What "facts" are there?

supports research by scientists and other scholars developing the scientific theory known as intelligent design

Three words...

The...

Wedge...

Strategy...

That website is basically a front for a religious group lobbying to push science out of the frame regarding the origin of the species. It's a case of "we could technically use the fact that science is all theoretical to push the point of intelligent design by classing it as a "scientific theory" too" and it makes me sick!

Schools are already barraged with religious teaching, there are specific schools set up PURELY for religious teaching and the government even FUND schools created specifically to teach religion. There is simply NO NEED for the zealots to stick their sticky little fingers into every nook and cranny in a vain attempt to convert the world to their own views on life.

If the intelligent design movement get there way you Americans will have no say whatsoever in how you live your lives because it will be law to be Christian, as can be seen in the phrases used by the movement...

"Five Year Objectives. Spiritual & cultural renewal: Mainline renewal movements begin to appropriate insights from design theory, and to repudiate theologies influenced by materialism; Major Christian denomination(s) defend(s) traditional doctrine of creation & repudiate(s); Darwinism Seminaries increasingly recognize & repudiate naturalistic presuppositions; Positive uptake in public opinion polls on issues such as sexuality, abortion and belief in God"

Evolution exists... FACT!

 

[TSPlayer62]

So if the the second law of thermodynamics could be proven to be false what makes you think evolution cant? And as for your comment on the religion ruining schools, evolution is a religion and based on the fossil record and the number of missing links ever found *cough 0* it takes a lot of faith to believe evolution, and in my opinion is indoctrinating kids with the idea there life is meaningless, were all just a buncha monkeys anyway right? Why not go shoot everyone in the school?

 

[BlackObsidian]

So if the the second law of thermodynamics could be proven to be false what makes you think evolution cant?

Nothing.

And what of all the "laws" of religion... How can they be proven/disproven?

And as for your comment on the religion ruining schools, evolution is a religion and based on the fossil record and the number of missing links ever found *cough 0* it takes a lot of faith to believe evolution, and in my opinion is indoctrinating kids with the idea there life is meaningless, were all just a buncha monkeys anyway right? Why not go shoot everyone in the school?

Not once did I say that "religion is ruining schools" so please don't twist my words to argue your cause... I stated that there is already a massive amount of religious teaching in schools and even schools devoted to purely teaching one religion alongside a normal curriculum so I don't see the need for religious beliefs to be taught "as science" when in fact the two are completely different.

Children should be taught ALL belief systems when they're young... They should be taught about Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Paganism and even Satanism.
They should also be taught Atheism, Theism and Agnosticism but not be FORCED to believing one religion above another due to the beliefs of their parents and community. When they have become an adult they then have the option to choose any or no belief system that they want to based on the things they have read and learned as kids without fear of reprisal from the people they care about.

If my child was old enough to have learned about various religions and able to formulate a good opinion and they said to me, "Dad, I think I believe in God" then they're entitled to do so and I won't stand in their way.

Children look up to adults and especially parents so who are we to corrupt and brainwash them with our own views, opinions and downfalls? I would NEVER force my own beliefs on a child because it's nothing but brainwashing...

There are a few definitions of "religion":-

1. One in which it means a set of beliefs about a certain subject that someone holds as extremely important.
2. One in which it means a belief in a deity.
3. One in which it means someone is being extremely thorough.

The particular definition to which I have referred is the second one, however the second one is not the same definition which would be used to describe evolution. Of course it can be argued that definition number one could potentially be suitable for both evolution and a deity depending on the people you speak to.

If you knew even the slightest thing about Atheism you'd know that we are not all a bunch of monkeys, life is not meaningless and by incorrectly simplifying things to such idiotic phrases as, "were all just a buncha monkeys anyway right? Why not go shoot everyone in the school?" you're showing your lack of maturity in "discussing" this subject.

 

[TSPlayer62]

Well i must say then i misinterpreted your words as an attack rather then discussion, i do believe also that ALL belief systems should be taught rather than forcing one. And as for the monkeys I wasn't talking about evolutionists who actually study the theory, but rather kids who are only being shown this point of view and don't actually know that much about the topic. My posts weren't intended to start a flame war but rather inform you that due to the complexity of life the chances are high that something designed it. For example, if you were stranded on a island and found a canoe, would you believe someone made the canoe or that the trees fell over and wind blew and water eroded over billions of years to make something that looks like a canoe? Design can be an easy thing to spot and i just feel that people are only being showed one side of the argument and shutting out the idea of a creator because they don't like the idea that there may be something or someone in control of the world, im not trying to make you a Christian just to realize evolution is not the only way accepted in science. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[RedBema]

Google Laminin.

Pretty cool stuff.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Bema Bema Bema...

The Laminin diagram myth is just that... A myth... If you look at the diagram it's easy to see that someone has simply stretched the diagram in order to draw religious reference to it... The P1 bottom section is elongated even though it's the same on all sides and the P2's are all the same too but for some reason the bottom one has been tweaked to resemble a crucifix:-

http://bio.takara.co.jp/bio_en/images/enM018a.gif = Original
http://labyrinthdesigns.biz/WoW/enM018b.gif = As it should look.

This is up there with the "Bible Codes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code) and "Bill Gates is the devil" (http://egomania.nu/gates.html)- i.e. you can eventually draw any reference you want from something if you look into it enough.

TS, have a word with Bema or read the Religion thread for my honest views on religion; I don't discount "design" entirely myself but I don't see it in teh same light as perhaps you do which is why I think it warrants discussin

 

[Pugs]

Evolution is a religion and based on the fossil record and the number of missing links ever found *cough 0* it takes a lot of faith to believe evolution, and in my opinion is indoctrinating kids with the idea there life is meaningless,

What missing links are you referring to the link between ape and human
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/top10_missinglinks-10.html?
Fish to land animals?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0405_060405_fish.html
or dino's to birds?
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton2.html

were all just a buncha monkeys anyway right? Why not go shoot everyone in the school?

Because that would be wrong and unhelpful to the species as a whole and it would be wrong because everyone has an equal right to live, and to live as they choose and believe what they chose as long as they respect my right to left out of their views.

 

[TSPlayer62]

Ok i said missing links not a species can you please show me what these 3 animals were before they were that and what they were after? Show me a complete series anywhere in the fossil record, you will be looking awhile.

 

[Molex]

Care to put any fact behind that or would you like to carry on saying what to believe and not why to believe it? You cant prove that evolution is an absolute if someone wants to believe that there is no such thing all together then that is there option, why is evolution an absolute in your opinion bring facts please not just random attacks at creationism.

Not sure what you are asking, are you asking me to provide proof of evolution existing. Want me to link sites? Want me to quote Scientist? Now lets be honest here, it really wouldn’t matter what anyone said or linked etc. You have a predisposition to believe otherwise.

 

[BlackObsidian]

*pop*
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s877478.htm
*vanish*

 

[RedBema]

*pop*

you can eventually draw any reference you want from something if you look into it enough.

*vanish*

 

[TSPlayer62]

Not sure what you are asking, are you asking me to provide proof of evolution existing. Want me to link sites? Want me to quote Scientist? Now lets be honest here, it really wouldn’t matter what anyone said or linked etc. You have a predisposition to believe otherwise.

I would say that is fair for both of us no? We all have bias's, what we need to do is not let our bias's get in the way of where the evidence leads. There was a staunch evolutionist once who debated on talk shows and radio for 40 years in support of evolution, his name was Anthony Flew. I encourage you to google his name. Just a few years ago he was converted to a creationist for the reason that evidence in DNA and its complexity could not have come about by chance. Can you give me an example of a famous creationist who debated with people for that long who suddenly changed? Evolution is a religion based on blind faith because we are taught to believe it but not why to.

*pop*
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s877478.htm
*vanish*

All these bone structures people have claimed to have *discovered a missing link* are one of 4 things.

1. A human

2. An ape

3. A deformed Human/Ape

4. An exctinct species of apes.

In any case none of these show a complete conversion of little by little steps slowly changing from ape to human. Do you know what would happen if you had calcium withheld from you? Your body would become deformed much like lucy or any of these other "discoveries" there should be millions of examples in the fossil record of species slowly changing into another. Not a single species you find, or some malformed human.

All in all to me evolutionis something people believe because they are told to, I on the other hand dont have enough faith to believe in evolution there just isnt enough supporting it

 

[BlackObsidian]

Again you are mixing definitions of "religion" TS

Also look at the numbers here... You've quoted a single person who switched from Evolutionist to Creationst and I'm sure that I could find many many who switched in the opposite direction.

At the end of the day I find SO many glaring issues with Creationism that I find it possible but not likely.

As per my views on religion which have been HEAVILY discussed in the thread of the same name I'm open to proofs of anything BUT I won't blindly follow the teachings of any person or people in regard to any subject without havin my own views and opinions on things and that would still be the case if I was brought-up in a hardcore Christian family/community.

I mean what's all this bullshit about the earth being only 10's of thousands of years old? It's been PROVEN to be older than that yet backwards little people persist in putting their fingers in their ears and singing, "la la la la la not listenig... la la la la..." instead of saying, "holy crap we were wrong, maybe things aren't exactly as we thought) - In science/evolution that's the exact thing we'd do... Admit that we're wrong if there's reason to do so.

 

[TSPlayer62]

First of all ide like to say thank you for taking the opportunity in having this dialog with me I consider it a privilage. Secondly i want to answer a few of your questions namely number1 the age and the dating methods that are available to us in the scientific community. Unfortunately I found in my experience that mainstream science and media refuse to quote and explain the vast number of dating methods that point toward a very young earth, universe, etc. Instead they run to the very small number of dating methods that have been proven to be flawed and put put blinders on concerning the methods that point toward a very young earth. There are a total of 115 different scientific dating methods that are accepted in the scientific community as a whole. Only 4 point toward an old earth and universe. 111 point toward a very young earth and universe. Heres 3 examples of the 111.

1. The relationship between plutonium and helium, plutonium as an element produces helium at a constant rate, helium as an element does neither escape our atmosphere nor dissapate(proven scientific facts). We know the volume of helium that is being being put into earths atmosphere from the plutonium at a constant rate, if we do the math backwards the earths atmosphere would be saturated with helium and would not support life at a maximum of 10,000 years.

2. The magnetic field around the earth is getting weaker at a constant rate(based on the earlier stated second law law of thermodynamics ie everything in existance is going from an orderly state in the past and becoming less organized or wearing out over time, this is a observable and provable law in everything that we can observe and has never been shown to vary). The rate at which the magnetic field is getting weaker if you do the math backwards in time 10,000 years ago, the strength of the magnetic field would be that of a quazar and the earth would not support life in those envirmental circumcumstances.

3. In the 1950s and 1960s as NASA was preparing to land a lunar module on the moon there was a phenomenon that the scientist were up agianst. You see there is dust and fine particles that float around in the universe. And these particulants accumulate on the moon because of its gravitational pull. In place at NASA were 2 scientific opinions about the age of the universe, one said the universe was very old and that the accumulation of this dust on the moon would be very signifigant and there were dangers of the lunar module being lost in this vast amount of dust, the other camp said no that the universe was very young and when you land on the moon you will only find a very thin layer of dust. And I think based on what ive explained so far you know what they found.

This only scratching the surface of the evidence in science concerning the evidence of the existance of God and the true age of the universe. Thank you for reading this and your time.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Hi again TS.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html#creadate covers some of the examples you've cited from your teachings/readings and it seems that science can "prove" the fact that the claims made by creationists are false.

I would venture a guess that just as I tend to believe the scientific "facts" I am taught or read about you also believe the "facts" you are taught or read about by your religious teachers.
As far as which source is correct I guess it's down to personal opinion on the subject; I see scientific fact as the best method for myself because I have an analytical and logical mindset and I see no reason (currently!) to believe in a deity but on the flipside, the strength of your faith is your method and you have your own reasons for placing this above science.

If I were in your shoes I'm sure my arguments would be along the same lines as your own, after all you seem like a smart person and not the type to embrace something without thinking, questioning and reasoning with yourself beforehand.

http://darwiniana.org/datingmethods.htm covers many other methods of dating used in science to prove the age of things on our planet.

 

[TSPlayer62]

I see no real anolitical responce to these "scentific" dating methods and the reason is not the evidences its the, clear rebellion of the person looking at them, and your only responces are conjecture, some thing thats undenyable is that we WILL all die and the will be no more conjecture accepted then!! a closer look at these things would be my recomendation that day comes fast for alot of people who dont expect it freind, my family is praying to the 1 and only MAJESTIC GOD JESUS CHRIST< the only 1 abel to place you in right standing before God! you dont want to carry that load of sin your self! Christ offers you the only other choose in existance!! God Bless You!

 

[BlackObsidian]

If you look at many different views and opinions on our planets across all walks of life, all religions and all people you will find that conjecture is a predominant force. To be honest it's perfectly feasible to state that ANYTHING which hasn't been documented and proven 100% is conjecture.

Religion is conjecture just as many scientific statements are. Nobody can prove that God exists just as nobody can prove that evolution is fact. All we can do is make a judgement and statement based on the evidence in front of us.

Your evidence leads you to worship a deity.

My evidence leads me to logical reasoning.

The one thing we have in common however is that we are both using our minds to examine things and make judgements and opinions based on what we see.

As you have said, we all die and some die before others. If you spend the rest of your life worshipping a deity and when you die there is nothing, you will not know that there is nothing because you will be dead. That means it's a safe bet for you to worship in the hope that there is something after the life in which we currently lead.

If I spend the rest of my life believing that there is no deity and that when we die there is nothing and when I do die I find myself in the presence of a deity who says to me "You did not believe in me... Why did you not believe in me?" I will reply quite simply:-

"You tell me big-guy... You're the all-seeing, all-caring omniscient being so you know full-well that I had no reason to believe in you. My suggestion would be that if you want people to believe in you, maybe you should do some of that Old Testament shit and kick-ass again so that people take note.

Tell me Big-G... (You don't mind me calling you Big-G do you?), in my situation, would you honestly and happily follow a book of which you cannot be sure of the origins? Would you join a world-wide community of people hell-bent (no pun intended Big-G!) on converting everyone to their way of thinking, irrelevant of the opinions and beliefs of those people?"

And to be honest I'd expect him to know exactly where I'm coming from... After all he can know exactly what I'm thinking and feeling at any given moment, can't he?

 

[RedBema]

If I spend the rest of my life believing that there is no deity and that when we die there is nothing and when I do die I find myself in the presence of a deity who says to me "You did not believe in me... Why did you not believe in me?" I will reply quite simply:-

"You tell me big-guy... You're the all-seeing, all-caring omniscient being so you know full-well that I had no reason to believe in you. My suggestion would be that if you want people to believe in you, maybe you should do some of that Old Testament shit and kick-ass again so that people take note.

Tell me Big-G... (You don't mind me calling you Big-G do you?), in my situation, would you honestly and happily follow a book of which you cannot be sure of the origins? Would you join a world-wide community of people hell-bent (no pun intended Big-G!) on converting everyone to their way of thinking, irrelevant of the opinions and beliefs of those people?"

And to be honest I'd expect him to know exactly where I'm coming from... After all he can know exactly what I'm thinking and feeling at any given moment, can't he?

He sure can Black,

It's called faith.

Wouldn't it be easy if God gave us every answer to every question that was ever posed? My, how interesting of a life that would be. Faith would be out the window and this entire world would be believers in God.

So....

If God is all knowing and all of that other good stuff, then why did He not do it that way? Why does He make it so hard? There has got to be a reason right?

Redbema: So God, my grandmother dropped dead the other day, how come I never had a chance to tell her goodbye?
God: Because that is the way that I deemed it.
Redbema: So God, my best friend just died in a car wreck, why is that?
God: Because it was for my purposes.
Redbema: So God, how come you made it so hard for us to have faith in you?
God: Because I chose it to be that way.
Redbema: Why is that God?
God: Who are you to question me? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? Have you walked the depth of the sea? Spoke light into existence?
Redbema: Nope, I sure havn't.

I guess I am about to either confuse you, encourage your view on us "Christians" or become a heretic, lol, but here goes nothing.

Black, my understanding of the Scriptures is that God actually chooses people. You are right, He does know you, and He knows me. He knows everybody. Why did God choose the Israelites to be His people? Why did God choose Abram, Moses, or any of the other "Insert Blackobsidian's sarcastic version of how God spoke to us in the OT here" ways to speak to people? It's because He has a purpose for how He does things.

Paul would later write something to the effect that we are not "counselors of God." We will never understand all of His purposes, and we are not supposed to on this side of heaven. Many, even conservative, Christians will disagree with me on this, but I believe that God not only "allows" things to happen, but that he "causes" things to happen. In fact, He is probably causing you to disbelieve right now. For a reason beyond us, He has a purpose.

Difficult to swallow, difficult to believe. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to be that God does what He wants. Does this make God a mean kid with an ant farm? I don't think so. I think that it makes Him all-knowing and us simply finite. We just have no concept of all knowledge. Nobody does. We will never fully understand why God does what He does, even causing people to disbelieve at times. Some say we are robots. I say that we are saved by grace. I look at God and I view Him as the sole creator of the universe, and I respect Him and give my life to Him. If I do not understand Him, so what. I do my best to understand. That is where God wants us to be, total trust in Him. Alot of people simply cannot do that.

In other words, if some of my "logical thinking" doesn't add up or make sense, then I will always trust His Word over my thinking.

God loves us enough to have created us, and desire a relationship with us. Some say that because He has let evil exist, it makes Him evil. But I say, how would we know good if there was no evil? God is good. He controls both good and evil for His own purpose.

And black, when you die, no offense man, but I honestly doubt that you will be able to stand before the Lord of lords and King of kings and debate Him. I think that your knee will bow and your tongue will confess that He is everything that He says He is.

He has His purposes, and they are for His glory. We just will not ever be able to understand it all during this lifetime. But that is why the Bible says that we live by faith.

Trust me black. I have taken alot of science and history courses and have come to question my very own existence. I have wrestled very roughly with my own belief in God, even to the point of total abandonment. But when it comes down to it, I do believe in God. I will always do my best to never be one of those Christian Extremist that go around and push people away from God by my evangelistic techniques. Personally, I believe that belief in God is very logical, however, I must understand that I do have faith in Him, and that this overrides alot of logic. However, there is no solution that will answer every single question in the world, except that of Christianity in my book. Evolution is not the problem solver. Archaeology is not the answer. Science is surely not the answer. Only belief in the One True God is when the world begins to make sense. When I discovered that is when I truly began to live.

My worldview was dead before that.

 

[BlackObsidian]

Wouldn't it be easy if God gave us every answer to every question that was ever posed?

No Bema you misunderstand me. The sole thing I'd like a pointer on is to the existence of God and whether the Bible is actually in our day and age now what he had planned as a blueprint for mankind.

I don't want answers to anything else... I like to think on my own rather than be spoonfed the end results (guess that's why I'm a software tester hey? hehe)

"Insert Blackobsidian's sarcastic version of how God spoke to us in the OT here" ways to speak to people?

The sarcasm wasn't called for. I've re-read my previous post and it could well be classed as an extremely rude poke at someone's beliefs which was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that of the amount of pure evil advocated in the OT.

And black, when you die, no offense man, but I honestly doubt that you will be able to stand before the Lord of lords and King of kings and debate Him. I think that your knee will bow and your tongue will confess that He is everything that He says He is.

You may well be correct, however if we are all God's children, why can we not see or talk to God when we die? I know there's a lot of secrecy about him in this life but maybe in the next/heaven etc he'll grace us with conversations?

 

[RedBema]

Black,

I was not trying to be rude about my "insert comment."

I really apologize if I came across that way. I was simply just poking fun and deeply apologize for it coming across the wrong way. I was just trying to be witty and silly.

As far as all of us being God's children, that is where you are misunderstood. The bible does not say that we are all God's children, in fact, it says quite the opposite. According to the Bible, you are only God's child if you are saved through Jesus Christ.

Black, you often speak of thinking for yourself and not being spoonfed. I realize that a big reason that alot of people are Christian is because they were raised to believe that way, and never really take the time to think about it themselves. However, it seems that you only know what people have told you about God and the Bible. You have alot of common misconceptions that I did before I was a "believer."

Before I decided to trust God's Word, I used to think the same way you did. How can it be true? It all didn't make sense, but whenever I began to delve myself into these kinds of questions, it all began to make sense. The "god" that many western minds have made up was really not the "God" of the Bible.

You are exactly right on one thing. There was alot of evil in the Old Testament. However, there is a whole lot of evil in our world today. What kinds of evil were in the Old Testament? War, we have that in our day. Murder, we have that in our day. Homosexuality, we have that in our day. Immorality, we have that in our day.

It seems that every single evil that was in the Old Testament is still thriving today. The problem of evil is a HUGE question for alot of people when it comes to a "good" God, one that I have sought to answer myself. However, one thing that you need to consider, since we are speaking about the Bible, is that God does not really speak to us the way that He did thousands and thousands of years ago.

Hebrews 1:1 says that in the past times, God spoke to the fathers [ancient people] through the prophets, but in these last times He speaks to us through His Son Jesus.

Black, the entire Old Testament was to lead up to the final prophet, Jesus. At least this is what I have gathered so far. From the beginning of time, ever since Adam and Eve fell, (of which special note, evil was already existent in the serpent before Adam and Eve sinned), God orchestrated events all for the purpose of leading up to His Son, Jesus, who would be the One who would die for our sins.

Just after the "Fall of Man," there is almost a hidden theme presented, but it's really not that hidden. God says something about the serpent (Satan and evil) and the woman's Seed. (Notice the captial on the "S") The serpent, God says, will bruise our heel, but the Seed of woman will crush the head. This is God's answer to a fallen world, grace, peace, mercy, and salvation to mankind through the perfect Jesus.

Every prophet, priest, and king would be nothing more than a "type," "symbol," or "image," of who this Messiah was to be. When Moses came, he represented the Messiah. When King David lived, he had things in his life that represented the Messiah. The prophets Isaiah, Ezekial, Jeremiah, etc., they would all prophesy about some kind of Messiah figure that will come and die for us. The Jewish people still read this OT and still look for this Messiah figure, the only problem is, is that they missed Him. It was Jesus. The reason they missed Him is because He did not come the way that they thought a "Messiah" should come.

Instead of being born in a palace, He was born in a feeding trough. Instead of coming in on a horse, He rode a donkey. Instead of coming in with a golden crown and a purpole robe, He came with a thorned crown and a tattered robe. Instead of being a great king, He was a lowly carpenter. Instead of coming and causing great victorious war, He Himself died on a cross.

It wasn't exactly what the Jewish people were looking for in a "king" or a great "prophet." Yet, this is exaclty how the OT says that He would come. Isaiah 53 is a perfect prophecy of it.

It seems to be that many are initially turned off of Christianity because of Christians. I, myself, am by no means perfect, nor will I ever claim to be perfect on this side of heaven. However, I believe that God loves me enough to have sent His only Son to die in my place. This is why I give my life to Him. It's not about religion, or theology, or anything of that matter, it's about my lifestyle and living everyday for Him.

Black, I respect every single thought that you have ever written. There has been many things that you have written that cause me to sit and think about for a long time. But it seems that you might have a misconception about the Bible and what it says. This is a common thing. Many people only know what they hear or what they see about the biblical God. But that is why Jesus, the new way that God speaks to us even in these days now, would eventually say that many who think that they are saved, really are not. People who many think are actually saved, are really not. It is between God and that individual person, and only God and you can know. Nobody else can determine that.

I am sorry that I misread your comment or offended you or answered in an incorrect way. I was just throwing in my two cents because I want people to know my take on some of the stuff that is in the Bible.

 

[BlackObsidian]

I'm not offended at all Bema

My comment should have read "MY sarcasm wasn't called for." - I was apologising because my comment about the OT wasn't called-for, I was venting about something of which I have a limited knowledge based on extracts I have read and heard reproduced in various formats, whether it be websites, books or people I have heard or know.

As you have correctly identified, it's perfectly feasible that I have many misconceptions about the Bible, Christianity and Religion in general and just as Science makes judgement and conclusion on subjects with only the knowledge it has at any given time (which is often incomplete) I have made statements and judgements on Religion/Christianity based on the knowledge I have and without looking into it further.

Most practising Atheists have an excellent knowledge of all religions because they have spent an extended period of time "looking for something" - That "something" many people find in God but some people don't which is when they may turn to Agnosticism or Atheism. In many cases Atheists have a better knowledge of a certain religion that some people actually practising that religion!

I'm sure at some point in the future I may well manage to make time to study The Bible and who knows where that could lead but for now I'm happy to continue labelling myself as an Atheist because I know that I'd change my mind in an instant if the situation changed for me.

 

[RedBema]

In many cases Atheists have a better knowledge of a certain religion that some people actually practising that religion!

Agree

And I have misconceptions of many other religions and beliefs myself.

 

[Molex]

....The magnetic field around the earth is getting weaker at a constant rate(based on the earlier stated second law law of thermodynamics ie everything in existance is going from an orderly state in the past and becoming less organized or wearing out over time, this is a observable and provable law in everything that we can observe and has never been shown to vary). ....me.

There is a fallacy in your argument when using the second law of thermodynamics as an arguemnet. The relevant part of the second law of thermodynamics you refer to assumes a closed system. The earth the galaxy the universe are in no way a closed system as there are infinite sources of energy.