EQBC/ISboxer discussion

[Sum1]

Very well could be! I hadn't even thought of that. Someone in the past told me that EQBC can send you a text message to your phone when you get a tell and you can answer on your phone too.

I don't use EQBC and would prefer not to, however, I would use it on my bots for a feature similar to what I am looking for. Ultimately I would like some way, any way really, to tell me the player name that enters my radius when my group /q's

EQBC is a game changer, man. I highly recommend giving it a go.

 

[nyghteyes]

Very well could be! I hadn't even thought of that. Someone in the past told me that EQBC can send you a text message to your phone when you get a tell and you can answer on your phone too.

I don't use EQBC and would prefer not to, however, I would use it on my bots for a feature similar to what I am looking for. Ultimately I would like some way, any way really, to tell me the player name that enters my radius when my group /q's

Oh my.....EQ without the BC.. I wouldn't even log in.

You send chat commands in native EQ windows? That shit be scary

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

EQBC is a game changer, man. I highly recommend giving it a go.

I use isboxer. I have a ton of different key binds, I can swap between 2 different hot bars on most characters, (shaman can swap between heals and debuffs, druids between heals and dps, enchanters between debuffing and dpsing etc etc). I have Ctrl F1 - F3 setup to buff my entire raid with item buffs/raid buffs/misc buffs, I have hot buttons to follow my tank, a single macro that uses mod rod, AA harvest and spell harvest. I play with 9 hot bars up usually.

I use Ctrl 1 - 0
Alt 1 - 0
F1 - F12
Ctrl F1 - F12

The whole numpad and del/end/ins/home/pg up/dwn as all of my keybinds ingame......

blah blah blah the list goes on and on. Ultimately i can play the game with only isboxer, on my main computer when I raid I only use mq2 for the utility (rez accepts things like that). People have told me all EQ bc can do and I have had many of discussions about it as well as read the sticky here/wiki on what it can do versus isboxer. However, no one has told me anything it can do better than isboxer and I haven't found anything I would need it for, except possibly weird utility such as this stuff (which I am totally open to using it for and would love to use it for weird stuff like texting my phone when people get in range, that would be amazing)

I am sure some people here swear by it. I started playing with isboxer and raiding with just isboxer though and I swear by that. If anyone can name anything EQ BC can do that isboxer can't (I have been down that road before) that could possibly be useful, I would consider it.

Otherwise, it's most likely personal preference =P

Oh my.....EQ without the BC.. I wouldn't even log in.

You send chat commands in native EQ windows? That shit be scary

What do you mean? like do i type /mac kissassist in my normal chat window? Yea I do, I don't type it in the macroquest window if that's what you mean, but couldn't I do that even without EQBC?

 

[nyghteyes]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

You pretty much answered most of it. I agree there's more than 1 way to do most thing with MQ2 and EQ. I started with building viewports and such with ISboxer and now only use it to manage my windows. No more captured video from toon to toon. I like to run my groups independently of each other instead of raid style since then I can camp more than 1 camp but still use them together to burn through the trash.

i.e. On my main toon I can tell my secondary group to invite its toons and then have them all follow him but not affect the group I'm running more manually.

Not trying to convert you,I just didn't get that ease of use from ISboxer.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

You pretty much answered most of it. I agree there's more than 1 way to do most thing with MQ2 and EQ. I started with building viewports and such with ISboxer and now only use it to manage my windows. No more captured video from toon to toon. I like to run my groups independently of each other instead of raid style since then I can camp more than 1 camp but still use them together to burn through the trash.

i.e. On my main toon I can tell my secondary group to invite its toons and then have them all follow him but not affect the group I'm running more manually.

Not trying to convert you,I just didn't get that ease of use from ISboxer.

I started using isboxer while Mq2 had that whole taboo (guess it still kinda does) surrounding it. I may have used EQBC instead to start, maybe it is easier to use than Isboxer, who knows, I have never made a comparison to it honestly. But the reason I started with isboxer is because I was scared of using MQ2 and getting banned. It was very complicated to setup and it took me days but I am very happy with how it plays and how it feels. Maybe cause i am used to it? I'm not trying to say it's better or anything, I am just trying to say it's what I started with and what I got accustomed to. The only thing I will say that's better is I can play on patch day =P

Also I know what you mean about multiple groups on one comp, I occasionally do that too, usually as I am waiting for unlocks I will split up my raid team doing various tasks, send some people to level a tear of alaris, others to farm and aug, others to PL yadda yadda yadda. I love splitting them up like that, I always feel so efficient when i do! =P

 

[nyghteyes]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

The only thing I will say that's better is I can play on patch day =P

That is a nice bonus

 

[eqmule]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

Once you start using eqbc there is no going back, it's a game changer.

Kinda like when you first got a smartphone you are gonna be like, how did I ever get by without it...

 

[hoosierbilly]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

EQBC.... someday I need to figure out how to use that. Today will not be that day. I think doing everything the hard way helps me maintain my patience, until I get frustrated and have to replace my keyboard... again... and again.... really, again... seriously, this is the third one this week....

 

[Warl0ck45]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

me personally I like using quickbeg.inc to have toons maintain their own buffs by asking for them (and asking over EQBC so only my toons respond) along with a lot of announcements on what suchandsuch toon is doing (also over EQBC) so I can follow along with what X toon is/is not doing. But I am also like nyghteyes, I separate out my groups to handle multiple camps (and use separate EQBC servers) to handle multiple camps, or combine them to handle harder stuff.

outside of that there is MQ2RelayTells to relay specific chatter to specific channels, or e-mail, along with the G-Mail support.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

Once you start using eqbc there is no going back, it's a game changer.

Kinda like when you first got a smartphone you are gonna be like, how did I ever get by without it...

I feel the same way about Isboxer. Once you start using Isboxer there's no going back to playing without it. Honestly I don't think I can play an mmorpg again without it

 

[MaxD]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

I found that even with is boxer eqbc is pretty much required. Just my move to me hotkey and camp here hotkeys get so much use.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

I found that even with is boxer eqbc is pretty much required. Just my move to me hotkey and camp here hotkeys get so much use.

Can you explain what the two of them do? One sounds like /afollow and one sounds like /afollow off to me =P

 

[Sum1]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

I agree about ISBoxer, as well. I did the short free trial and immediately bought a year subscription. I think I spent $40.00 for a year of access, and it was WELL WORTH the money. Combined with EQBC, I don't know how I ever played EQ without these two capabilities before... and especially now that I run with basically two full groups the flexibility of EQBC is huge.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I agree about ISBoxer, as well. I did the short free trial and immediately bought a year subscription. I think I spent $40.00 for a year of access, and it was WELL WORTH the money. Combined with EQBC, I don't know how I ever played EQ without these two capabilities before... and especially now that I run with basically two full groups the flexibility of EQBC is huge.

As for someone who uses both programs, can you tell me something you use EQBC for that you do not use isboxer for?

 

[dreamflux]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

As for someone who uses both programs, can you tell me something you use EQBC for that you do not use isboxer for?

Simplified hotkeys. The driving character has hotkeys that send EQBC commands to all of your boxes instead of having to repeat keys between windows. EQBC basically completely removes the need to echo keys because all of the commands can be sent from one character to another using /bct, /bca, /bcg etc. For instance to start KA on all characters you can have a single hotkey on tank of:

/bcga //tar tank
/pause 3
/bcga //mac kissassist

instead of having to have a start key on every box.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

Simplified hotkeys. The driving character has hotkeys that send EQBC commands to all of your boxes instead of having to repeat keys between windows. EQBC basically completely removes the need to echo keys because all of the commands can be sent from one character to another using /bct, /bca, /bcg etc. For instance to start KA on all characters you can have a single hotkey on tank of:

/bcga //tar tank
/pause 3
/bcga //mac kissassist

instead of having to have a start key on every box.

hmm. Less initial work would be a perk to using it, I have done all those hotkeys already though. Also, you can make a hotbutton on every character at one time with isboxer via broadcasting.

/hotbutton Start /mackissassist

Would make a macro that is called "STart" and the first line of that macro will be /mackissassist

Then just edit the hotbutton and put a space between /mac and kissassist. That's usually how I make hotbuttons for my entire raid.

 

[nyghteyes]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

So I dont have to make hotkey for each toon I can create them on one character and copy the ui/hotbutons to another with little to no changes with using ${Me.Name}

So, say you want to move your toons through a dungeon but not turn on follow and then off again or only move a cleric to a corner. I refuse to rely on follow or stick in a dungeon.

These are just small examples so you never swap screens or touch the other toons, with kiss most actions can report to the EQBC server and relayed in everyones MQ2 window.

Move the cleric

/bct clericname //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Move group

/bcg //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Move everyone connected to eqbc

/bca //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Start Kiss on the entire group

/bcga //target ${Me.Name}
/pause 5
/bcga //mac kissassist

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

So I dont have to make hotkey for each toon I can create them on one character and copy the ui/hotbutons to another with little to no changes with using ${Me.Name}

So, say you want to move your toons through a dungeon but not turn on follow and then off again or only move a cleric to a corner. I refuse to rely on follow or stick in a dungeon.

These are just small examples so you never swap screens or touch the other toons, with kiss most actions can report to the EQBC server and relayed in everyones MQ2 window.

Move the cleric

/bct clericname //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Move group

/bcg //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Move everyone connected to eqbc

/bca //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}

Start Kiss on the entire group

/bcga //target ${Me.Name}
/pause 5
/bcga //mac kissassist

I don't usually use follow either, Group CoTH is irreplaceable for me =P

The only use I think I could get out of the move to commands is if I was doing a technical raid that involved me moving everyone from 1 area to another. Depending on how well they followed that path.

One raid that comes to mind it would be really useful on is Zalikor. Having everyone move from the ramp to the floor and from the floor to the ramp on his different phases.

Wouldn't the Move to commands be clunky though? I mean, if you don't like /follow or /stick, how much different is the movement using /move to? I would assume it's something similar to /afollow. To which, why not just use /afollow as it sounds like it would take less work than having to look up your coordinates each time you move (unless the Y/X isn't just a placeholder and it auto checks your coordinates for you).

Also, are you saying you never create a hotkey on your toons and type out commands for EQBC each time you want to do something? If so, wouldn't you say that requires more work, not less? Even if it took really long, like 5min to make /afol hotbuttons, and let's assume it takes 10 seconds to type out "/bca //moveto ${Me.X}, ${Me.Y}" that would mean you can move your characters a total of 30 times before you're wasting time by not creating a hotbutton

 

[nyghteyes]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

It looks up and relays the coords for you. The 1 command posted is the hotkey.

I use stick uw often but in dungeons its nice to move from spot to spot. Moveto doesn't use follow logic, it makes a straight line to the loc.

You are misunderstanding I think, I only have to set up 1 character and just do a copy ui to all toons and blam, all toons have 99% of the keys done since they mostly don't need to be tailored specifically per character

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

It looks up and relays the coords for you. The 1 command posted is the hotkey.

I use stick uw often but in dungeons its nice to move from spot to spot. Moveto doesn't use follow logic, it makes a straight line to the loc.

You are misunderstanding I think, I only have to set up 1 character and just do a copy ui to all toons and blam, all toons have 99% of the keys done since they mostly don't need to be tailored specifically per character

Indeed, I did misunderstand. I thought you were typing that out each time. I similarly don't have to create a UI tailored specifically for each char, I usually do 1 UI per class then /copylayout to fill in the blanks.


Do you ever use /afol versus /moveto? I have always assumed the purpose of EQBC was for essentially exactly what ISboxer does now, gives you a way to control all your characters at once while they're alt tabbed/not the main window.

For me when I need to move around I have 2 hotbuttons,

F6 is
/pause 5, /target tank
/afol on


F5 is
/afol off

So I hit F6 then run to where I wanna be, hit F5 and then I hit 8 which

/pause 5, /target tank
/mac kissassist

I could see moveto being useful if they moved directly on top of the player for tight corners. Sometimes even Afol doesn't hug the tank enough and ends up getting stuck on a torch or a barrel when I am rounding a corner. I hate when it does it in public too because then the character starts jumping into the wall which just screams MQ2 =P

Also, if you have a macro running (Like KA) will moveto take priority over casting/attacking? One thing that really bothers me about /afol when I have macros running is stopping to cast ends up taking priority over movement. That's actually the reason i stopped using Kissassist/any macro on my main computer while I raid.

I need my characters to listen and do what they're told when they're told to do it, not what they think is the best thing to do =P

 

[nyghteyes]

Re: MQ2 Posse - Logs?

You can use moveto to force movement, I spam it from time to time to force KA to wait for moveto to finish before resuming medding or casting ect. /chase typically lets the kiss do its thing before following. Which is nice to make them not look like bots. But by myself I want them to move when I say so, I dont usually give them enough time to get back to their happy place, mana wise before moving on.

We derailed the shit outa this thread LOL, damn Maskoi trying to mend the tracks.

 

[Warl0ck45]

EQBC can also be set up as a chat server for friends, outside of EQ chat logs. IE once properly set up your buddy can log in to your EQ server, or you to his/hers (the same as using MQ2IRC and chatrooms) to share control of toons. Or even set toons to be macro run with automation for buffing but "listening" only to that channel (IE random D-Bag001 can't "prove" your a bot by making it respond to keywords) or just to chat about stuff you don't was DBG to get hold of, with out leaving EQ to do it.

It can also be used as a reporting system "HELP Cleric being attacked!" or what ever. Again, outside of normal EQ chat channels so it can not be tracked, thus the messages can be what ever.

EQBC itself has tell reporting, guildsay reporting, group reporting, and a number of other nifty utility features.

And of course it can be used to issue direct commands, to groups, or specific toons.

It can also be used by a number of plugins, MQ2Netbots and MQ2NetHeals off the top of my head.

It is much like anything else found in MQ... there are a lot of uses, all depends on your playstyle =)

 

[Casca]

I don't understand not using EQBC if you use MQ2 and macros to run bots. Without EQBC +netbots, your toons check all your other toons by targeting. And if you run a bunch of toons, your bots are cycling through targeting at a hundred miles per hour. If anyone ever targets your toons, dead give away. If you have all your bots on an EQBC server and run netbots, they don't need to target anymore to determine if whatever toon needs a heal, buff or whatever and they'll heal faster.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I don't understand not using EQBC if you use MQ2 and macros to run bots. Without EQBC +netbots, your toons check all your other toons by targeting. And if you run a bunch of toons, your bots are cycling through targeting at a hundred miles per hour. If anyone ever targets your toons, dead give away. If you have all your bots on an EQBC server and run netbots, they don't need to target anymore to determine if whatever toon needs a heal, buff or whatever and they'll heal faster.

There's a hundred and one ways to tell if someone is botting, that's just one of them =P

 

[nyghteyes]

If anyone is wondering about Netbots

 

[Sum1]

Was it netbots + EQBC that allowed MQ to push information about debuffs/negative affecting certain characters without needing the toons to spam cycle through targets?

 

[dreamflux]

Does ISBoxer still have crashing issues with MQ2Nav?

 

[nyghteyes]

Was it netbots + EQBC that allowed MQ to push information about debuffs/negative affecting certain characters without needing the toons to spam cycle through targets?

Yes

MQ2NetBots - Provides Linked MQ2EQBC Client way to exchange/share statistics/status to others and make those informations available in TLO for macro scripters and HUD designers.

Not sure how far brainiac has gotten with this.

Does ISBoxer still have crashing issues with MQ2Nav?

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Are we sure the bot spam cycling through targets even slows down its reaction time? My bots can be slow, for sure, but it's usually my DPS bots failing to engage quickly or pausing too long between casts. If it does slow down the bots, and something I have always figured is, I would assume that using EQBC would be a slower reaction time than just using Isboxer since it has to pass through two mediums instead of 1.

IE..

EQBC:

Keypress > to EQBC > to Character's Client

Isboxer:

Keypress > to character

Does ISBoxer still have crashing issues with MQ2Nav?

Not that I see but Isboxer has graphical crashes with MQ2 depending on your video card. They don't work like normal crashes though, the crash report pops up but you can ignore it if you want and still play. It can be annoying though cause if the client DOES actually crash you gotta keep trial and erroring crash reports trying to figure out which one belongs to that client. You have to clear the crash report in order to boot another character into that isboxer slot.

 

[nyghteyes]

I understand the thinking of the processing through 2 mediums, but the weight and how the code is written is all the difference in the world, Not so much as how many pieces its processed through. A programmer from here could explain this in much greater detail than myself. But there is for sure more going on in Isboxer and EQBC than the simplified steps you outlined.

EQBC is instantaneous, I have yet to ever see EQBC itself lag in anyway, doesn't mean its not happening but it is so minute its not noticeable. It would be no slower than any other well written plugin.

 

[eqmule]

I use mq2advpath with eqbc a lot and I have paths recorded in most zones I frequent so for me I never worry about who is following who etc.
I just do

/bcga //play pathname

and they all play that path, following it... Nobody ever gets stuck and they are not dependent on having the same run speed or mounts etc... everyone arrive safely... Always...

 

[Sum1]

One of the reasons EQBC seems instant is its usually setup to run off one computer (so the old 1.0.127 or whatever IP) or a few computers all on the same internal network. Super low latency.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

I understand the thinking of the processing through 2 mediums, but the weight and how the code is written is all the difference in the world, Not so much as how many pieces its processed through. A programmer from here could explain this in much greater detail than myself. But there is for sure more going on in Isboxer and EQBC than the simplified steps you outlined.

EQBC is instantaneous, I have yet to ever see EQBC itself lag in anyway, doesn't mean its not happening but it is so minute its not noticeable. It would be no slower than any other well written plugin.

I have also never seen my healers lag/fail to fulfill a task from switching targets quickly/checking every char in range (at least that I know of). *IF* they were slower with EQBC, I would assume adding in that other medium, even if speeding them up, would make them about the same. My bot healers don't heal as good as the healers I play (duh) and I figured that was primarily from turbo being so low in KA. I have raided/grouped with other botters on the TLP and I know that even with EQBC they experience the same sluggishness with their bots compared to an actual person pressing the buttons.

EQBC is a program you run side by side with MQ2 right? I have seen it in the folder and I just opened it up to a dos window, but it's an exe so I would assume it's a program you run while botting side-by-side. From the jist of what I get on the wikipedia it works like a server that everyone uses a port to connect to and such and such.

How much of your computer resources does it use and does it increase the more characters connected to the server? I'd assume the more characters on 1 server, the more information it needs to process which means the slower it would end up eventually sending the commands to each client that requires them.

I'd also assume that this would be even more noticeable when people not on your IP connect to your server. People say you can control your chars + a friends from across the country. Say he goes to sleep and you wanna take over his chars for the time being how slow does that friend receive the commands you send to him?

One of the reasons EQBC seems instant is its usually setup to run off one computer (so the old 1.0.127 or whatever IP) or a few computers all on the same internal network. Super low latency.

I would assume with what you're saying is, if you use two computers to box you'll start to see a drop in how fast it receives commands on the second computer, right?

 

[nyghteyes]

I have also never seen my healers lag/fail to fulfill a task from switching targets quickly/checking every char in range (at least that I know of). *IF* they were slower with EQBC, I would assume adding in that other medium, even if speeding them up, would make them about the same. My bot healers don't heal as good as the healers I play (duh) and I figured that was primarily from turbo being so low in KA. I have raided/grouped with other botters on the TLP and I know that even with EQBC they experience the same sluggishness with their bots compared to an actual person pressing the buttons.

Alot of this has to do with configuration- ie number of toons, heal %'s, pc build, of course its rarely as good as an attentive person. But I dont know any that can box 12+ manually and effectively for any long period of time per session.

I would assume with what you're saying is, if you use two computers to box you'll start to see a drop in how fast it receives commands on the second computer, right?

Only if you are going outside your local network and jumping nodes. I doubt youd even notice much if you connected to the dude across town.

How much of your computer resources does it use and does it increase the more characters connected to the server? I'd assume the more characters on 1 server, the more information it needs to process which means the slower it would end up eventually sending the commands to each client that requires them.

The resource used is almost nothing, you wont notice you are running it if thats what you're concerned about.

'd also assume that this would be even more noticeable when people not on your IP connect to your server. People say you can control your chars + a friends from across the country. Say he goes to sleep and you wanna take over his chars for the time being how slow does that friend receive the commands you send to him?

This would be very noticeable as that is a huge number of jumps, you are restricted by the latency of that connection. Ping that IP youll get an idea of the latency.

 

[psimoon]

ISBoxer was crashing for me a while ago, but it seems that Brainiac fixed the issue. It was so bad that if I /plugin mq2nav load would crash my ISboxer screens to desktop.

Now I can load and unload the plugin just fine. Once you get the meshes built, the nav and door click is pretty helpful in The BM.

Bottom line, you should be able to use both ISboxer and MQ2Nav, I do.

 

[LurkMcGurk]

Alot of this has to do with configuration- ie number of toons, heal %'s, pc build, of course its rarely as good as an attentive person. But I dont know any that can box 12+ manually and effectively for any long period of time per session.

Right now the only issue I have with isboxer is it round robins each client. When I am boxing 36 on my main PC I notice a minor decrease in DPS on my wizards because when I press say 1, it sends 1 to each of my 36 clients 1 at a time. On burns I notice a 20 - 30k decrease in DPS per wizard because of this. I have been trying to find a way to fix this without boxing less on my main PC as that would completely nullify the reason I bought this PC... To box that many. The wizards I bot while I raid (4 of them) are usually always at the bottom of my DPS meters and do about 3/4 the DPS of the wizards I play, even with Afnuke.

I am not opposed to running EQBC on my second computer to see if I can get those wizards doing more dps than my main computer or at least comparible dps. I am just trying to find a way that I can think of using EQBC to actually help increase my overall DPS versus using it to essentially "reinvent the wheel" since I already have all of them setup and functioning with isboxer.

The resource used is almost nothing, you wont notice you are running it if thats what you're concerned about.

I was mostly just curious about the resources it used. My biggest concern about using it would be another program running simultaneously because my computer gets choppy lag spikes once every 2 - 3hrs. Usually 10 - 20sec my computer just starts choking on its own spit and goes all slowmo on me. Then it's fine for another 2 - 3hrs. It's not a giant concern of mine since it happens so infrequently, but it has me trying to run as few programs as possible when i go to raid to decrease draw on my PC

 

[Warl0ck45]

The EQBC server can be run with a raspberry Pi , as I understand it.

Matter of fact there is an Iphone and Android app to connect to EQBC, so you can check on your dudes while taking the dog out for his business or what ever.

As far as improving DPS, are you currently running them with macros or strictly by hand use key repeaters.

 

[nyghteyes]

Thats Petes awesomeness, Here

 

[LurkMcGurk]

As far as improving DPS, are you currently running them with macros or strictly by hand use key repeaters.

Hand, if I use macros their dps goes down the drain rapidly. Kissassist does realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly low DPS, about half what i do by hand afnuke does about 80% of what I do by hand but even what I do by hand isn't what I can do if my computer wasn't running so many.

So... Lets use random numbers to make it easier to understand =P

KA dps = 180k burn
Afnuke = 240k burn
By hand while boxing = 270k burn
Solo playing a wiz on a GGH target dummy = 320k burn

I can't FOR SURE say that what is causing me to do less dps is the fact that ISboxer round robins 1 client at a time but I am 90% sure it is because when I box less, I do the proper amount of dps. I have found the cut off to be somewhere around 24 - 30. They'll do max DPS when I box that amount of them but the second I push my computer to 36 I start doing less. And it's not like I am pushing my computer hard, I have posted pictures here before of my CPU usage/memory and my CPU is usually around 50-60% and memory about the same.

 

[nyghteyes]

Have you tried Razkles AFwiz to compare to Kiss?