Question - Crazy Question!!!! No Flaming Please

[Medicman]

Using all CWTN based plugins. My group consists of SK, BL, Mage, Chanter, Shaman (Healer), and Bard. Ok, here goes the question: Should I continue to use the SK as a Puller Tank or use the Bard as an Assist Tank? I am currently using the SK, as I said, but is there any advantage to using a Bard to pull over the SK. My fear is that the Bard, if pulls more than one, would he/she mez the other mobs out of range of the group or would he/she bring them all back to the group and then the Chanter and Bard would do CC while the SK engaged the attacking mob. I know I could have made this shorter ...but I wanted you to see a mental picture of what I am currently doing. The DPS is through the roof even though I am not using my Zerkers or Rogues. I am killing a mob in EW or WW in 15-20 seconds. Ok ...input would be most appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Which CWTN plugins (classes) have you experienced putting out the most DPS? My group kicks ass but I would like to always improve. Just food for thought. Also ...Bard or Chanter better for CC?

 

[Deleted member 241925]

I pull with my tank, I have had situations where my bard would die in 1 shot.

 

[BrianGragg]

Using all CWTN based plugins. My group consists of SK, BL, Mage, Chanter, Shaman (Healer), and Bard. Ok, here goes the question: Should I continue to use the SK as a Puller Tank or use the Bard as an Assist Tank? I am currently using the SK, as I said, but is there any advantage to using a Bard to pull over the SK. My fear is that the Bard, if pulls more than one, would he/she mez the other mobs out of range of the group or would he/she bring them all back to the group and then the Chanter and Bard would do CC while the SK engaged the attacking mob. I know I could have made this shorter ...but I wanted you to see a mental picture of what I am currently doing. The DPS is through the roof even though I am not using my Zerkers or Rogues. I am killing a mob in EW or WW in 15-20 seconds. Ok ...input would be most appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Which CWTN plugins (classes) have you experienced putting out the most DPS? My group kicks ass but I would like to always improve. Just food for thought. Also ...Bard or Chanter better for CC?

It comes down to preference. I prefer the tank to be the puller. The bard shouldn’t mez mobs outside your camp radius to my understanding.

Enchanter will always be better than a bard at CC but it comes down to what do you “need” or “want”. The Bard will suffice in almost all situations and the enchanter is just over kill.

 

[an_image]

Using all CWTN based plugins. My group consists of SK, BL, Mage, Chanter, Shaman (Healer), and Bard. Ok, here goes the question: Should I continue to use the SK as a Puller Tank or use the Bard as an Assist Tank? I am currently using the SK, as I said, but is there any advantage to using a Bard to pull over the SK. My fear is that the Bard, if pulls more than one, would he/she mez the other mobs out of range of the group or would he/she bring them all back to the group and then the Chanter and Bard would do CC while the SK engaged the attacking mob. I know I could have made this shorter ...but I wanted you to see a mental picture of what I am currently doing. The DPS is through the roof even though I am not using my Zerkers or Rogues. I am killing a mob in EW or WW in 15-20 seconds. Ok ...input would be most appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Which CWTN plugins (classes) have you experienced putting out the most DPS? My group kicks ass but I would like to always improve. Just food for thought. Also ...Bard or Chanter better for CC?

I think it's situational, sometimes bard is better...sometimes you want a tank if there's a chance someone is going to oneshot you dead.

 

[Sum1]

Using all CWTN based plugins. My group consists of SK, BL, Mage, Chanter, Shaman (Healer), and Bard. Ok, here goes the question: Should I continue to use the SK as a Puller Tank or use the Bard as an Assist Tank? I am currently using the SK, as I said, but is there any advantage to using a Bard to pull over the SK. My fear is that the Bard, if pulls more than one, would he/she mez the other mobs out of range of the group or would he/she bring them all back to the group and then the Chanter and Bard would do CC while the SK engaged the attacking mob. I know I could have made this shorter ...but I wanted you to see a mental picture of what I am currently doing. The DPS is through the roof even though I am not using my Zerkers or Rogues. I am killing a mob in EW or WW in 15-20 seconds. Ok ...input would be most appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Which CWTN plugins (classes) have you experienced putting out the most DPS? My group kicks ass but I would like to always improve. Just food for thought. Also ...Bard or Chanter better for CC?

You, sir, are a dirty liar! There is no such thing as a CWTN bard plugin!

 

[an_image]

It comes down to preference. I prefer the tank to be the puller. The bard shouldn’t mez mobs outside your camp radius to my understanding.

Enchanter will always be better than a bard at CC but it comes down to what do you “need” or “want”. The Bard will suffice in almost all situations and the enchanter is just over kill.

Disagree, i like to run bard and enchanter both on a team...both are great givers and will balance out any 2x berzerker or 2x mage (dps core of your team) you establish. It's also nice to know that things will get mezzed no matter what in case your CC get's one shot by something

 

[arander]

depends on situation, easy areas no snare or stun i use bard to pull and i have him set to pull next one at 20% life current mob. if theres stuns or snares i use the tank. also if its an area where mobs hit super hard i use tank

 

[BrianGragg]

Disagree, i like to run bard and enchanter both on a team...both are great givers and will balance out any 2x berzerker or 2x mage (dps core of your team) you establish. It's also nice to know that things will get mezzed no matter what in case your CC get's one shot by something

It’s all situational I run an enchanter and bard on a TLP with out zerkers. All caster group. It’s been sometime since I’ve been in live but I would venture to guess another zerk in place of that enchanter would net more dps than not.
I also started by saying it’s what ever you need OR want.

 

[Robban]

Only use of a bard puller is if you manually pull, I guess. Otherwise use the SK to pull and let the bard CC

 

[Medicman]

You, sir, are a dirty liar! There is no such thing as a CWTN bard plugin!

I said I use all CWTN based plugins, I did not say they were all run by such plugins. And I do not appreciate being called a liar. If you have something negative to say, do it in private.

 

[ASmith50]

Then easy answer is pull with your bard since it is being manually ran.

Think Sum was just pulling your leg abit there don't think It was an actual attack ... but could be wrong /shrug

 

[Turaj Steelfist]

I said I use all CWTN based plugins, I did not say they were all run by such plugins. And I do not appreciate being called a liar. If you have something negative to say, do it in private.

I got the vibe that Sum1 was joking. It is a running joke about bard and CWTN plugins.

Step one take deep breaths.
Step two say woosaa
Step three apologize to Sum1

 

[Sum1]

I said I use all CWTN based plugins, I did not say they were all run by such plugins. And I do not appreciate being called a liar. If you have something negative to say, do it in private.

As other have said, I was joking (literally every time a bard plugin gets brought up around here CWTN and his other devs drown a kitten).

But, I should have expected an AF dude to be a little slow on the uptake

(ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing!)

 

[Szazor]

SK for pulling!

You actually have an interesting Grp makeup - but I think you probably have more adps than dps...to really improve - you could probably ditch the Bard and replace with another true caster.

If you get a chance - add another caster dps (Mage, Wiz, Necro - maybe even a Druid) and just see how your overall dps is boosted.


I do agree with what others have said here...Bards are really good IF you are playing them and know the class, but an SK will rock pulling without a degree in Game mechanics!

 

[covidgamer]

not sure how well the plugins work for pulling, and any pulling you do on bard or SK will vary based on settings and method you use to do it. that being said, bards are super duper amazing pullers. im not sure if KA can run a bard as a good puller or not, im sure it could be macro'd with enough patience.
BUT, if you can keep the tank in camp tanking and dps running, your kills per hour will go up, id at least try to get the bard running. (and if your are game for manually pulling, that sk just cant beat the bard!)

 

[Sic]

Using all CWTN based plugins. My group consists of SK, BL, Mage, Chanter, Shaman (Healer), and Bard. Ok, here goes the question: Should I continue to use the SK as a Puller Tank or use the Bard as an Assist Tank? I am currently using the SK, as I said, but is there any advantage to using a Bard to pull over the SK. My fear is that the Bard, if pulls more than one, would he/she mez the other mobs out of range of the group or would he/she bring them all back to the group and then the Chanter and Bard would do CC while the SK engaged the attacking mob. I know I could have made this shorter ...but I wanted you to see a mental picture of what I am currently doing. The DPS is through the roof even though I am not using my Zerkers or Rogues. I am killing a mob in EW or WW in 15-20 seconds. Ok ...input would be most appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Which CWTN plugins (classes) have you experienced putting out the most DPS? My group kicks ass but I would like to always improve. Just food for thought. Also ...Bard or Chanter better for CC?

if you're trying to increase your kills per hour, i would suggest trying a huntertank mode with the rest of the team in a chase mode - they will stay with you and you will halve your travel time just ---> to the mob and not ---> to the mob and ---> back to camp.

You're a little overkill with the double CCs in that group, but you should still be rocking pretty hard.

I personally prefer to pull with my tank in modern content, there are just too many mobs that can instant-proc dmg/dot/stun/root on you from any distance, and that can really put a damper on your fun - which is another reason in current content I prefer doing a huntertank mode rather than pulling back to a group.

sounds like either way you're doing great, so keep it up!

 

[Medicman]

if you're trying to increase your kills per hour, i would suggest trying a huntertank mode with the rest of the team in a chase mode - they will stay with you and you will halve your travel time just ---> to the mob and not ---> to the mob and ---> back to camp.

You're a little overkill with the double CCs in that group, but you should still be rocking pretty hard.

I personally prefer to pull with my tank in modern content, there are just too many mobs that can instant-proc dmg/dot/stun/root on you from any distance, and that can really put a damper on your fun - which is another reason in current content I prefer doing a huntertank mode rather than pulling back to a group.

sounds like either way you're doing great, so keep it up!

Thanks for getting back to me SiC! I always appreciate your input, not because other's don't matter because they most definitely do, but you and a very few others created these magnificent plugins. I don't really use the Bard for CC as much as I use him to twist songs that trigger the Synergy line of Focus AA's (or so I am told and have read). The Chanter does the majority of CC in my group and, like I said ...the Bard is there to sing and create extra DPS via strengthening the others with DPS increasing songs. With the HunterTank in mind, would you not run the risk of running through someone else's camp killing their area as well?

 

[Medicman]

SK for pulling!

You actually have an interesting Grp makeup - but I think you probably have more adps than dps...to really improve - you could probably ditch the Bard and replace with another true caster.

If you get a chance - add another caster dps (Mage, Wiz, Necro - maybe even a Druid) and just see how your overall dps is boosted.


I do agree with what others have said here...Bards are really good IF you are playing them and know the class, but an SK will rock pulling without a degree in Game mechanics!

Thanks for your feedback. The SK is pulling mobs with great ease and uses a spell that doesn't create damage so there is no chance of being summoned. One thing that is happening, that I don't understand, is why the SK pulls in the direction in which he does ...often leaving mobs within the camp radius unpulled. I have even seen him run past 2+ mobs to get to one further away. Is there anyway to make him stop doing that?

 

[Medicman]

You, sir, are a dirty liar! There is no such thing as a CWTN bard plugin!

Just wanted to apologize for taking your comment of being a "LIAR" as a joke. Didn't appear to be such and thus my reaction. I will know in the future to let it roll off like water on a duck's back. Just that my integrity is very important to me and I reacted accordingly with out a minute's forethought. Thanks and I hope you will continue to offer your opinion to any questions that I might have. Take care and have a blessed day.

 

[Szazor]

check out your Z radius.... if the Z radius is set very small, and the mobs close to camp are outside the radius, it will always ignore them.

 

[Sum1]

Just wanted to apologize for taking your comment of being a "LIAR" as a joke. Didn't appear to be such and thus my reaction. I will know in the future to let it roll off like water on a duck's back. Just that my integrity is very important to me and I reacted accordingly with out a minute's forethought. Thanks and I hope you will continue to offer your opinion to any questions that I might have. Take care and have a blessed day.

Will do!

I'll start now

Ditch the bard. If you aren't fully utilizing the bard synergies and bellow and meleeing (which is kinda poor anyway) and dotting you're wasting the bard's usefulness. Overhaste is great for melee, but all melees should have clicked the blackburrow overhaste cloak. The rest of the bard's adps songs are worthless in today's game.

I say this with dismay because I was a bard raiding main for a very, very long time and really enjoy the class. The adps songs aren't worth playing. Play dots and insults and stuff instead (or, as I said, just drop it for a diff toon).

 

[Medicman]

check out your Z radius.... if the Z radius is set very small, and the mobs close to camp are outside the radius, it will always ignore them.

No, I am talking within the Radius and they run right passed to closest one to pull ones farther away and then they do eventually get those also, just seems weird that they would run right past the closer mob.

 

[vandersl]

To chime in here - to me an important factory is ease of use. Using the CWTN UI and commands to set up just seems easier than doing the same through KA.

 

[an_image]

As other have said, I was joking (literally every time a bard plugin gets brought up around here CWTN and his other devs drown a kitten).

But, I should have expected an AF dude to be a little slow on the uptake

(ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing!)

Or he gets creative and pulls out a cranberries song ... MQ BAAAARDDDD.......!

 

[an_image]

Will do!

I'll start now

Ditch the bard. If you aren't fully utilizing the bard synergies and bellow and meleeing (which is kinda poor anyway) and dotting you're wasting the bard's usefulness. Overhaste is great for melee, but all melees should have clicked the blackburrow overhaste cloak. The rest of the bard's adps songs are worthless in today's game.

I say this with dismay because I was a bard raiding main for a very, very long time and really enjoy the class. The adps songs aren't worth playing. Play dots and insults and stuff instead (or, as I said, just drop it for a diff toon).

Hmm...agree with some of this...but disagree a little too. Bard songs are great to round out teams of FTP who many not be able to acquire clicky (prestige) gear. As an example said cloak...they're also amazing at saving your crew and pulling....it's pretty hard to train some of my box teams that have both an enchanter and bard ready to mez...also...tons of fun for getting you from a/b and opening locked doors that require lockpicking...so utility argument is strong...

I usually use them when I know said team is undergeared or possibly getting into situation where my sucky pull skills are likely to get us killed (so basically 99% of the time)...lol

 

[Sum1]

Hmm...agree with some of this...but disagree a little too. Bard songs are great to round out teams of FTP who many not be able to acquire clicky (prestige) gear. As an example said cloak...they're also amazing at saving your crew and pulling....it's pretty hard to train some of my box teams that have both an enchanter and bard ready to mez...also...tons of fun for getting you from a/b and opening locked doors that require lockpicking...so utility argument is strong...

I usually use them when I know said team is undergeared or possibly getting into situation where my sucky pull skills are likely to get us killed (so basically 99% of the time)...lol

Even F2P teams should burn a krono at least once at some point to do the important AA's. While your toons are gold during the krono burn, pass around a cloak to click for the overhaste. I attunes, but just unattune it each time (if you don't have multiples). Done. Still don't need a bard (if you're running a chanter, too). From a survivability standpoint, chanters are better mezzers and they have significant damage mitigation abilities (multiple spell/melee runes; rune aura). They also have better debuffs, which (after doing some AA's) can drop other additional debuffs on the mobs, too.

In the handful of scenarios where you need a bard to lockpick (and don't have a rogue.... who are better at it...), then load up the bard for that situation. But everyday running around? Hard pass. It's just not worth it anymore if you already have a chanter. Plus, both the SK and chanter can pull just as well as the bard (true story). When I don't run my SK I'll often pull with the chanter because I basically just pull whole rooms of mobs one right after the other. If you need singles or doubles, that's also doable, too.

 

[an_image]

Even F2P teams should burn a krono at least once at some point to do the important AA's. While your toons are gold during the krono burn, pass around a cloak to click for the overhaste. I attunes, but just unattune it each time (if you don't have multiples). Done. Still don't need a bard (if you're running a chanter, too). From a survivability standpoint, chanters are better mezzers and they have significant damage mitigation abilities (multiple spell/melee runes; rune aura). They also have better debuffs, which (after doing some AA's) can drop other additional debuffs on the mobs, too.

In the handful of scenarios where you need a bard to lockpick (and don't have a rogue.... who are better at it...), then load up the bard for that situation. But everyday running around? Hard pass. It's just not worth it anymore if you already have a chanter. Plus, both the SK and chanter can pull just as well as the bard (true story). When I don't run my SK I'll often pull with the chanter because I basically just pull whole rooms of mobs one right after the other. If you need singles or doubles, that's also doable, too.

You are way underestimating my ability to suck Sum1. Thank you...lol. But in all seriousness you're right on that too. They will all eventually get a krono popped...until then (personal preference) it helps me to have one around. Full disclosure, i value convenience/peace of mind way more than speed. I've upgraded my usual mix to tank/brd/enc/cleric

 

[Trapper]

with kiss on easy content like ToV/CoV base zones, I sometimes set the bard to puller in Kiss and set the chain pull % @ like 60% so that there's always a mob getting to camp around the time the first mob is dieing. but I alot of times, pause him and do a pull manually to get 3-5 mobs.

 

[CheshireGat]

Overhaste is great for melee, but all melees should have clicked the blackburrow overhaste cloak.

For those of use who don't have the cloak, what/who is it from?
Are we talking about the 17% overhaste cloak: Ancient Cloak of Flames or is there another one?

 

[Sum1]

For those of use who don't have the cloak, what/who is it from?
Are we talking about the 17% overhaste cloak: Ancient Cloak of Flames or is there another one?

That’s the one

 

[Naeeldar]

Even F2P teams should burn a krono at least once at some point to do the important AA's. While your toons are gold during the krono burn, pass around a cloak to click for the overhaste. I attunes, but just unattune it each time (if you don't have multiples). Done. Still don't need a bard (if you're running a chanter, too). From a survivability standpoint, chanters are better mezzers and they have significant damage mitigation abilities (multiple spell/melee runes; rune aura). They also have better debuffs, which (after doing some AA's) can drop other additional debuffs on the mobs, too.

In the handful of scenarios where you need a bard to lockpick (and don't have a rogue.... who are better at it...), then load up the bard for that situation. But everyday running around? Hard pass. It's just not worth it anymore if you already have a chanter. Plus, both the SK and chanter can pull just as well as the bard (true story). When I don't run my SK I'll often pull with the chanter because I basically just pull whole rooms of mobs one right after the other. If you need singles or doubles, that's also doable, too.

I need to run some parses but you are sort of leaving out fierce eye + epic being rotated an 100% on for crits. Been while since I parsed that impact but it’s definitely big vs. Ench or was anyway for melee groups.

 

[Autumn]

personal oppion
if im running enchanter/bard
I want the bard to be singing his songs to boost the group and dps and let the enchanter mez
the group you have is fine.
always use tank to pull cause they can take a hit better and with cwtn plugins for eskay and war the pulling is amazing super customizable
also no question too crazy or stupid on RG

 

[Sum1]

I need to run some parses but you are sort of leaving out fierce eye + epic being rotated an 100% on for crits. Been while since I parsed that impact but it’s definitely big vs. Ench or was anyway for melee groups.

I'm not tracking that FE and bard epic can be rotated for 100% "on" capability. FE's recast timer is longer than the epic recast timer, iirc.

And normally I'd agree with you on the melee group thing... but this dude isn't running a pure melee group.

 

[Naeeldar]

I'm not tracking that FE and bard epic can be rotated for 100% "on" capability. FE's recast timer is longer than the epic recast timer, iirc.

And normally I'd agree with you on the melee group thing... but this dude isn't running a pure melee group.

Together no they can’t but one or the other running at all times? yes they can. so you can rotate one and then the other.

I misread though or confused with another group thread I had opened because some reason I thought he had more melee. I agree drop the bard and stick with ench and add another mage. I either run bl & brd in my melee group or I run ench and 3 casters.

 

[RangerDanger13]

@Sum1 then in your opinion would a Chanter or Bard be better with a hybrid caster/melee group consisting of a War, Clr, Bst, Mage, Rng? I have both a chanter and bard on the same account (both max level/AA, but bard has some raid gear where the chanter is COV T3 Tradeskill). I use the Bard currently for the mobility/utility. I switch at times but trying to consider the best make-up for Raid and to focus my time on progression back-flags.

Medicman: I would continue to pull with the SK and have the Bard assist the tank on pull, less likely to come back to a dead puller from my experience with those two classes. All the CWTN plugins work well, I would suggest you just pick what classes you like for group make-up--as for which damages more, I think it is more class-based versus plugin capability in my opinion. Both the bard and enchanter CC well for me, but for very large pulls I have had better experience with enchanters keeping my group alive (pulls with over five mobs that can be mezz'd). But agree with earlier comments Bard suffices for almost all situations where a Chanter can be overkill.

 

[riot]

i run sk/bard/shm/rogue/zerker/monk

I'm assuming I didn't make a mistake rolling bard for this group setting?

 

[RangerDanger13]

i run sk/bard/shm/rogue/zerker/monk

I'm assuming I didn't make a mistake rolling bard for this group setting?

No way, not with that melee power

 

[Sum1]

i run sk/bard/shm/rogue/zerker/monk

I'm assuming I didn't make a mistake rolling bard for this group setting?

You’re winning at eq. No reason to swap.

 

[Sum1]

@Sum1 then in your opinion would a Chanter or Bard be better with a hybrid caster/melee group consisting of a War, Clr, Bst, Mage, Rng? I have both a chanter and bard on the same account (both max level/AA, but bard has some raid gear where the chanter is COV T3 Tradeskill). I use the Bard currently for the mobility/utility. I switch at times but trying to consider the best make-up for Raid and to focus my time on progression back-flags.

Medicman: I would continue to pull with the SK and have the Bard assist the tank on pull, less likely to come back to a dead puller from my experience with those two classes. All the CWTN plugins work well, I would suggest you just pick what classes you like for group make-up--as for which damages more, I think it is more class-based versus plugin capability in my opinion. Both the bard and enchanter CC well for me, but for very large pulls I have had better experience with enchanters keeping my group alive (pulls with over five mobs that can be mezz'd). But agree with earlier comments Bard suffices for almost all situations where a Chanter can be overkill.

Honestly, with your setup I feel like you could go either way. Hybrids that rely on spell casts for their dps can see an outsized benefit from enchanter adps. When we don’t have enough bards we’ll stick rangers in with chanter groups in our raids.

 

[RangerDanger13]

Honestly, with your setup I feel like you could go either way. Hybrids that rely on spell casts for their dps can see an outsized benefit from enchanter adps. When we don’t have enough bards we’ll stick rangers in with chanter groups in our raids.

Thanks for the response!