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Discussion - EQ Emulator Legal Matters

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Valdemar

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Redbot's edit:

This thread is for discussing legal matters around the EQ emulator scene. Accepting anyone's post here as legal advice is a bad idea, but it's a very interesting topic! Here are some links to get you started:

Daybreak Sues The Heroes Journey EQ EMU Server Devs

THJ devs just got sued by Daybreak. Secrets just took down Quarm due to the lawsuit. I knew this was going to happen to THJ with their "donations" with in game loot. This all just came out. The situation is fluid. https://mega.nz/file/pklUwCSY#bFuhDTTa9zi1VQlM7lCDp1QtKD8VZN7EylOkiDrmVvI...
www.firesofheaven.org www.firesofheaven.org


www.eff.org

Online Gaming’s Final Boss: The Copyright Bully

Since earliest days of computer games, people have tinkered with the software to customize their own experiences or share their vision with others. From the dad who changed the game’s male protagonist to a girl so his daughter could see herself in it, to the developers who got their start in...
www.eff.org www.eff.org


Back to Valdemar's original post:



kronoislife said:
Not sure I understand the legal consequences comment above.

Does that mean that the guys who are focusing on Emu could face legal action for helping the new guys based on something new in the landscape? That the new guys could face legal action? Something else?

Not trying to be obtuse, I just genuinely don’t understand.
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EMU servers have been around for decades, so if Verant, Sony, DBG, or whoever else owned EQ in the past, had a legal basis to sue or issue a cease and desist, they would have done so. No, I think the reference to potential legalities is referring to Live/Test MQ builds. The basis for such action would probably revolve around intellectual property Rights, or violations of the terms of service which is a contract. Since the game is free-to-play already, DBG would be hard pressed to claim damages or fraud, but given their hostility, who knows.
 
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Valdemar said:
EMU servers have been around for decades, so if Verant, Sony, DBG, or whoever else owned EQ in the past, had a legal basis to sue or issue a cease and desist, they would have done so. No, I think the reference to potential legalities is referring to Live/Test MQ builds. The basis for such action would probably revolve around intellectual property Rights, or violations of the terms of service which is a contract. Since the game is free-to-play already, DBG would be hard pressed to claim damages or fraud, but given their hostility, who knows.
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Well, I don't think they really had much financial incentive to go after any of those until The Hero's Journey showed up, that one was actively hurting them I would say. Especially with them making as much money as they were off THJ. To hear about potential legal consequences for MQ is worrisome, but why would that have never happened in the past? Is it the new ownership?
 
Valdemar said:
EMU servers have been around for decades, so if Verant, Sony, DBG, or whoever else owned EQ in the past, had a legal basis to sue or issue a cease and desist, they would have done so. No, I think the reference to potential legalities is referring to Live/Test MQ builds. The basis for such action would probably revolve around intellectual property Rights, or violations of the terms of service which is a contract. Since the game is free-to-play already, DBG would be hard pressed to claim damages or fraud, but given their hostility, who knows.
Click to expand...
They have a legal basis. The reason they don't sue is the cost to do so, public relations issues, other factors, etc. do not mistake not taking action as not having the legal right to take action.

Your analysis is incorrect.
 
nookiecookie said:
They have a legal basis. The reason they don't sue is the cost to do so, public relations issues, other factors, etc. do not mistake not taking action as not having the legal right to take action.

Your analysis is incorrect.
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I assume you're talking about EMU servers. Can you tell us what there legal basis would be?
 
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nookiecookie said:
Read the decision granting the preliminary injunction against THJ: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.casd.819107/gov.uscourts.casd.819107.66.0.pdf

Unless Daybreak, through agreement, granted someone the right to use their software, art works, that they can have a case for copyright infringement and violations of the DMCA. The fact that they did not sue others did not prevent Daybreak from using the THJ developers.
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Thanks. I did read the article. I find this topic very interesting and good rabbit hole to dive into. I took away from the article that the ruling was the result of a failure by the judge to either research or understand the underlying facts that THJ was entitled to use images from the original game. Anyway, copyright for EQ is either 95 or 120 years depending on how it's creation is classified, so I guess there's no escaping it. I found some interesting articles on similar copyright topics I'm going to read and use it as a learning opportunity.
 
As stated above, the legal basis has always been there. To the best of my knowledge, name Everquest is a registered trademark and the software content is the copyrighted intellectual property of its current owner(s).

There is an old expression that imitation is the best form of flattery. In the past when the Emu community was small and limited, the owners at the time perhaps chose not to pursue legal action for various reasons which may have included public relations, as mentioned, above or even a form of advertisement for its own product.

The following is all speculation on my part and should be viewed as such. Early on to the best of my knowledge, the only Emu I had heard of was Project 1999, which to the best of my knowledge was exclusively pre-Kunark. Or perhaps only the original EQ plus Kunark. The owners of EQ may not have viewed it as a threat because at that time EQ was several expansions into its life. Perhaps the owners of EQ could have even viewed it as a “playable demo” where folks got their feet wet and then moved on to the full blown “real” EQ.

Let’s fast forward to present day. EQ is an aging title and more and more MMO’s exists competing for a players time and financial capital. EQ most likely has a solid core base but as time has progressed and more Emu’s have emerged, that core base might have eroded and with that erosion came a significant drop in revenue. Again, this is speculation and food for thought and discussion. When a company’s bottom line takes a significant hit, it takes action. They may have weighed the costs of legal action plus any loss of goodwill, and felt that was out-weighed by actual financial loss.

Engaging in constructive and civil discussion about “what if” scenarios is always fun, but when the day is done this is only the opinion of the posters to this thread. Hopefully this discussion stays civil.

Be well.

Edit: I wrote this on my tablet so have tried to edit and clean up as many grammatical errors that I could.
 
There is a written agreement since 2015 between p99 and daybreak authorizing p99 to operate under the terms and conditions of that agreement. Most EMU servers run off ROF2 release of eq. This limits the emu game to earlier expansions.

My understanding is ROF2 was a version a person can get legitimately from steam. This is no longer the case due to the THJ lawsuit most likely.

I am concerned about that some individuals are trying to create an emu server to present day expansions. This may lead Daybreak to be more restrictive on emu servers in the future. If it impacts there revenue, they will likely act.

We live in interesting times and sometimes that is good, sometimes it is not. Only time will tell which it is.
 
I did not realize that Project 1999 actually had an agreement with EQ. I guess that made it a semi-official/unofficial project. Now I can understand why DBG hired some of the P99 folks to work on EQ Legends. It was like P99 was the minor league development, to borrow a baseball analogy.
 
Just confirming in the other thread I wasn't talking about legal issues with eqemu.

It's pretty nuanced with regard to emulator and nookiecookie hits the nail on the head. The USA has some weird copyright laws, and jurisdiction does matter.

There's an interesting thing with regard to P99 as to whether DBG could have won that lawsuit without invoking the ambiguous portions of the DMCA. Since Rogean was willing to sign an agreement, it's moot now. That licensing agreement that makes it not matter. But the original P99 recreated a version of the game that did not exist (and still does not). So there's some argument there that it could be seen as a preservation effort for a game that no longer exists. That's a lot different from most other emulators out there and it was really in both of their best interest not to try to go to court over it to try to settle the law. It's also a scenario where the vast majority of people playing on P99 are not going to be customers that would have played on Live which isn't meaningful in the legal sense but it is in the effort sense.

As nookiecookie said, copyright is copyright. You can't distribute someone else's copyrighted work without their permission.
 
I wonder if their passive position changes should EMU be uplifted and brought closer to Live, and how MQ2 / MQ fits in between
 
Hylander said:
I wonder if their passive position changes should EMU be uplifted and brought closer to Live, and how MQ2 / MQ fits in between
Click to expand...
Based on what I read from the SO TOS, DBG only authorized using expansions up to DoN. Going past that would be unauthorized.
 
Early 2000's Scorp2k got slapped with a C&D, think SoD might have been as well. Sony went after quite a few EMUs back in the day. They will continue to target EMUs that they deem the monetary value lost to the EMU is greater than the legal fees/negative PR. The money THJ was pulling monthly was no small amount either, why they ended up in the crosshairs.
 
Algar said:
What does this have to do with your post?
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I am not sure. I was quoting you, where you said there was no such thing. I provided an example of such a thing.


Right now P99 is static and authorized/legal.

EQEmulator is semi-static and "safe" until an instance crosses one of the laid out lines, or DBG decides to kill it.

Those lines being instance profit, DBG player loss, changing of the experience in game too much, etc...

That it not going to change much until March 17, 2124, where we will see similar things like horror Winnie the Pooh.

At least this is my take on it.


Of course, if someone tried to do like what they did with League of Legends and WoW, that might be something else, but I thought that was what Pantheon was supposed to be.
 
stuff said:
I am not sure. I was quoting you, where you said there was no such thing. I provided an example of such a thing.


Right now P99 is static and authorized/legal.

EQEmulator is semi-static and "safe" until an instance crosses one of the laid out lines, or DBG decides to kill it.

Those lines being instance profit, DBG player loss, changing of the experience in game too much, etc...

That it not going to change much until March 17, 2124, where we will see similar things like horror Winnie the Pooh.

At least this is my take on it.


Of course, if someone tried to do like what they did with League of Legends and WoW, that might be something else, but I thought that was what Pantheon was supposed to be.
Click to expand...
Dude you said it was authorized up to DoN, I responded with a quote, I'm confused, but whatever.
 
Algar said:
Dude you said it was authorized up to DoN, I responded with a quote, I'm confused, but whatever.
Click to expand...

EQEmulator - Server Operator Terms of Service

EQEmulator is an open-source Everquest emulation project for creating custom Everquest servers.
www.eqemulator.org

I was going by this, unless it is not real?

8. Each EQEmulator server shall be maintained at all times as a legacy fan project and will never be operated in conjunction with any EverQuest expansion other than the following: The Ruins of Kunark, The Scars of Velious, The Shadows of Luclin, The Planes of Power, The Legacy of Ykesha, The Lost Dungeons of Norrath, Gates of Discord, Omens of War, Dragons of Norrath. This limitation applies to all game content, features, and assets associated with later expansions, even if those assets are imported or adapted for use with earlier-era gameplay. You understand and agree that this preservation of the original EverQuest experience is essential to maintaining the fan-based and non-commercial nature of the EQEmulator community.
 
stuff said:

EQEmulator - Server Operator Terms of Service

EQEmulator is an open-source Everquest emulation project for creating custom Everquest servers.
www.eqemulator.org

I was going by this, unless it is not real?

8. Each EQEmulator server shall be maintained at all times as a legacy fan project and will never be operated in conjunction with any EverQuest expansion other than the following: The Ruins of Kunark, The Scars of Velious, The Shadows of Luclin, The Planes of Power, The Legacy of Ykesha, The Lost Dungeons of Norrath, Gates of Discord, Omens of War, Dragons of Norrath. This limitation applies to all game content, features, and assets associated with later expansions, even if those assets are imported or adapted for use with earlier-era gameplay. You understand and agree that this preservation of the original EverQuest experience is essential to maintaining the fan-based and non-commercial nature of the EQEmulator community.
Click to expand...
Maybe I should've said more from the outset, I'm just a little weary from how many times this convo has played out... that's on me. I apologize.

Perhaps there are some server operators that have entered into private communications, and made some binding agreement with DBG similar to this one... but I'm not aware of any, myself, nor have I ever seen DBG acknowledge anything of the type.

We aren't privy to the exact agreement betweeen P1999 stuff, or the Quarm stuff, afaik. No way to know what that looks like.

Edit: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.casd.819107/gov.uscourts.casd.819107.53.4.pdf for p1999.

To boot, many popular servers that utilize this account system or login server blatantly break those rules, so even if it is just some TOS between Rogean and them (and not DBG), it certainly isn't being enforced.

I've seen too many people whose voices I trust on legal matters scoff this as a heap of crap, to put it bluntly.

Edit: To be clear, the eqemulator.org website is not the EQEmu server project, which is an open source project found here : https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu. That website has no control or authority to speak for anyone but the owner, other than whatever they work out with server operators who use their login server or whatever. What I'm trying to say is, people often conflate the two, they are separate things.

Every server operator can use their own login server, that code is part of the project above.
 
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Ahh. That does open a can of worms.

If you use the eqemulator.org site and their login servers you're limited to their implied TOS.

If you contribute to the github you could recreate up to live, use your own login server and then play it locally in your own house.
 
stuff said:
Ahh. That does open a can of worms.

If you use the eqemulator.org site and their login servers you're limited to their implied TOS.

If you contribute to the github you could recreate up to live, use your own login server and then play it locally in your own house.
Click to expand...
Right, but even then, that guy flat out has to know people aren't abiding by that. The ultimate takeaway is that the legality of some dude just posting a thing is not even worth considering, to me, personally.

Ofc, this is easy to say when you aren't running a server. I realize it may have a chilling effect on those wishing to do so, which may have been part of the goal? Or it could be a lame attempt at CYA. Who knows.

Certainly not my dumb ass.
 
There are many who run EMU servers outside of the servers of EQEmulator or other known EMU hosting. Worst case scenario if DBG issues a cease letter, many of these silent servers might gain word of mouth popularity. Even then, still by definition goes against DBG on legal areas. Many I see will remain closed door by invite only.

It's the staying private vs opening the server up to increasing number of people that has more risk legally.

For MQ, as a server creator, as long as you never change some of the client .exe's there are some older versions of MQ that run with modern expansion client builds of EMU without even needing to patch much. You find a version that works, then never patch it where possible.

Emulators also have IP rights to models and zones that can lead into issues legally if DBG wants to pursue a compounding case:
Differences start to form once you pull in more modern clients. The quests / raids / missions have to be recreated with both changes server side and client patching (THJ had this). Using zones and NPCs from ToB if you have the client, but takes alot of work on the DB side and it is never 100% as you are literally recreating the game essentially using live as comparison. Alternatively, you use the zones and models and create your own game. I won't even attempt to go into legality with that one. Overall just IP risks and can fall into where THJ ended up.

Just my 2 cents is all. We risk by using MQ. We risk by creating EMU Servers. For the love of the game, we do what we need to enjoy it until it is over.
 
Algar said:
Edit: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.casd.819107/gov.uscourts.casd.819107.53.4.pdf for p1999.
Click to expand...
This was really interesting to read. Namely:
  • a) your emulator software was created from scratch and you did not and will not access, copy, modify, distribute, or use any Daybreak server-side software in connection with your development, testing, or operation of Project 1999;
    • This speaks to the hurdles of taking emu servers past DoN.
  • c) Project 1999 users are and will always be required to obtain their own copies of the EverQuest client software in order to use Project 1999, and you will not encourage, induce, or assist any user in obtaining a pirated copy of the EverQuest client software;
    • This responds to many requests I've read about why emu clients aren't easily accessible.
  • f) Project 1999 will be maintained at all times as a legacy fan project and will never be operated in conjunction with any EverQuest expansion other than the following: The Ruins of Kunark, The Scars of Velious, The Shadows of Luclin, The Planes of Power, The Legacy of
    Ykesha, Lost Dungeons of Norrath, Gates of Discord, Omens of War, Dragons of Norrath, and Depths of Darkhollow.
    • Does this mean that we there's enough client-side info to take emu's to DoD?
  • B) Transfer to Daybreak. It is important to Daybreak that you remain in control of Project 1999 at all times. You agree not to sell, lease, or transfer control of Project 1999 to any other person or company. If and when you decide to discontinue your operation of Project 1999, you
    agree to provide prior notice to us and. upon request from Daybreak, to either (i) transfer the emulator, the website, and all related social media sites free of charge to Daybreak, or (ii) permanently delete the emulator, the website, and all related social media sites. Upon such transfer to Daybreak or permanent deletion, Daybreak agrees to release all legal claims it may have against you.
    • EDIT: Maybe this means Daybreak will be the inevitable owner EqEmulator.org (unless it gets deleted)?
 
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Discussion - EQ Emulator Legal Matters
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