A fundamental flaw in RPG's

[Frybread]

If you play Everquest for 2 years and your level 75 character is pitted against a level 3, you will win.

If you play Mario Kart for 2 years and race against someone who has played for 3 days, you will win.

Both games reward time spent, but the progress made is very different. If you log into Everquest and give the newbie your level 75 character and you roll a new level 2 to fight him, you'll see the result of fake progress.

There is no way to make a newbie good at Mario Kart, Chess, Unreal Tournament, Football, Starcraft, Shuffleboard, or any skill game. A newbie in skill games has to acquire real experience, the kind of exp that doesn't have a numerical value and can't be powerleveled.

The fundamental flaw in RPG's is that you don't become a better player. The game forces a better player onto you.

 

[Khatib]

Not true. Skill, as well as knowledge still factors into it. Yes, when you're comparing noobs vs well established players, levels and gear will always win out. Especially the levels part. But when you take someone who's been lvl 75 for 2 months and someone who's been level 75 for 2 years... the guy who's only been there 2 month could easily beat the 2 years guy if he's a talentless hack and the new guy has half a head on his shoulders.

You mentioned starcraft... I know people who've been playing certain RTS games for years and still suck. I... well, I used to be... I'm way rusty now after 2 years of WoW preceded by 2 years of SWG, but I'm a bit of an RTS shark. I used to be world rated in AoE 2 and AoM, and I rocked in SC, but never played ladder due to the first 4 times I tried to play, people dc'd vs me on purpose so I couldn't get any points, even though the dc gave them a loss. So I said f ladder and don't know how high I could have gotten in SC.

Anyways though... I had tried WC3 for like 2 games when a friend got it on release day. I thought it sucked... still do. The hero thing and the population to resource penalty thingy... what do they call it? upkeep? it all takes too much of what I feel is a true rts out of it. A few of my roommates played it for maybe 5 months. They all played a couple years of starcraft and a couple years of age of empires 2. They weren't noob RTS guys. They had 4-5 months worth of WC3 under their belts. One night they were all playing, and I decided to look for a working no-cd hack... I found one, got into the LAN game with em... we just played a bunch of FFAs... teh first game they laid off me early cause I was learning what units did what... I was 2nd out of 4. The second game they didn't lay off so much, I was still 2nd. The third game they gunned for me early cause I was starting to scare them. I still got 2nd. The 4th game on through about 8 that we played that night, I won every one. 2nd time ever playing, maybe my 3rd-10th games ever played. Against guys who knew every race, every unit, all the tech trees... and guys who are truthfully decent gamers.

Some people just excel at certain genres. I guarantee you if I picked up BF2142 and tried to play that fatality kid... even if he's never played it before and I had a 6 month head start, he'd be kicking my ass by the end of the first night, if not the first game. And I usually do well in BF2. I'm not a standout FPS player though, just a good one.

In WoW, when I rerolled horde over a year after launch, I killed my first 60 at level 49, and got dozens more before I hit 55. If you know what you're doing, and how to exploit the weaknesses of another player, you can get places, even in an MMO. Of course, lvl 10 vs lvl 60 has no chance. But that's what an RPG is about. Character development. It's not a flaw, it's a feature.

 

[Lesson25]

I see both your points. Yes, gaining experience points in any RPG will lead to increasing levels which will lead to increasing stats and abilities, so in RPGs it is possible to forgo risky encounters and just leverage your statistical advantage.

However, Fry somewhat implies that this means there is no skill involved in RPGs and that it is solely about this statistical advantage that comes from playing more; I do not agree with this. In FF-X, there were some optional sidebosses that were so overpowered it was almost like a puzzle to beat them; while additional leveling certainly did apply some leverage the real boon was figuring out the perfect sequence of actions (& reactions) to counter their abilities. Similarily, in WoW, there are players who I would consider skillful and unskillful based on their choice of actions and how they react to my actions. While my level and gear does offer an extremely steep advantage over level 3s, it is timing and choices (or lack there of) that determine my success against other 70s.

 

[mven]

IMO what this really boils down to is that a typical RPG is about developing Character Skill rather than Player Skill. Character Skill is what decides that it is unlikely for someone who is an uberl33t slayer of giant monstars to be defeated by some guy who has been practicing his sword skeelz on some evile crows between rounds of shovelling horse shit back on the farm. The player chooses a course of action for their character and the character's skill determines the outcome of that action. In newer online games player skill begins to make more of an impact because the games are real time and thus some quick thinking and "twitch" skill comes into play. I think they allow there to be such a huge gap between differing character skill levels to minimize the effect of player skill. Who is gonna keep farming up teh ph4tz if some noob that actually knows how to play can just kick your ass?! I mean forrealz!

 

[Lesson25]

I think they allow there to be such a huge gap between differing character skill levels to minimize the effect of player skill. Who is gonna keep farming up teh ph4tz if some noob that actually knows how to play can just kick your ass?! I mean forrealz!

Yes but by the same token: someone who plays MarioKart or Tekken for 2 years has no similar guarantee to beat a newcomer in those games.

 

[mven]

That is because Tekken and MarioKart are not RPGs. They are not so much about assuming the role of a Character who plays a part in a virtual world, developing that character, and experiencing that world through his/her eyes. It is the nature of the game for that character's experience within the world which he/she is being played in to determine his/her "skill". If the character is a master of combat it is highly unlikely that he/she would be defeated by a novice. Unfortunately the easiest way to do this is to simply make it so that a developed character is way the hell stronger than an underdeveloped one. This is to level the playing field so that Player Skill and/or computer hardware does not outweigh the skill of the Character within the RPG world.

When you switch from the level 75 character to the level 2 you are not starting off as a level 2 character with the long time player's massive experience behind them. You are starting a completely new character within the world who has very little experience. A better comparisson would be to have the experienced mariokart player have all knowledge of mariokart blanked out of his memory and then having to figure it out from scratch. Pit the now ignorant mariokart noob against a veteran and it's unlikely he would win. It's because mariokart is more about player skill while the rpg is more about character skill.

 

[isobelle]

i think it would be really interesting to have a level playing field for arena matches. having standardized sets of armor. talent trees focus the gear a bit, so there would obviously need to be a set for each type... a resto druid isn't going to want spell damage gear (unless it has +healing also).

subtlety roges get THIS set of gear, resot shamans THIS set, and then let it play out.

the fact that "Guild PWNZOR" had naxx on farm status, and walked into the arena with all purple pixels is too bad for Joe the Warrior, who really is a better player, but just never had the guild to back him up.

in my case it wouldn't make much of a difference, since i tend to be a spaz in PvP. i flail around, spamming a key i know isn't cooled down yet; after i die i suddenly remember the trinket i should have used.

i'm pretty much done with WoW at this point. it's the best game out there, but it's run its course. i really hope Warhammer is as good as i hope... i'm slowly just burning thru all my 'epic mount' gold just respeccing every day (about 5 in the last 6 days at this point) and trying new things.

i used to abhor BGs (still do), but the arena is actually pretty fun. it would be cool to see how far up it i can climb before i move on to something else.

 

[isobelle]

p.s. twinks are fucking retarded. if killing 800,000 players in PvP never nets you one "experience point", then stop calling it that.

 

[mven]

Iso, a friend of mine who is more into BGs and I used to talk about that a good deal. That they should create "PVP Sets" that players are allowed to mix and match from for all BG/Arena matches. Make 3-5 sets for each class that focus on specific types of playstyles and then 1 or 2 generic sets for folks who like the jack of all trades approach. Then just let players dressing room it up and save their own PvP set builds. Then you might at least have some good competition in instanced pvp if they don't want good world PvP.

If people aren't happy with that just create two ladders. A more "anything goes" ladder and a "fair and balanced" ladder. Let folks who prefer to test their skills on a level playing field jump into the latter and for those who want to flex their geared out might or see if they can beat geared folks on skill alone hit up the former. Have the same rewards etc for both but maybe some different titles earned through each to spice things up a bit.

Anyway sorry for the off topic post : P I am more interested in the original topic than WoW as I am currently not playing~ I just always thought some gear balance for competative PvP would be nice in WoW. I don't want to have to gear all 5 of my characters just to be able to compete.

 

[Lesson25]

i think it would be really interesting to have a level playing field for arena matches.

The playing fields is extremely level IMO. TBC gave out good gear like candy, as you yourself pointed out. Any reasonably intelligent caster should have picked up at least 6k HP and 600 spell damage by the time they hit 70 just from quest rewards and the occasional instance; if they haven't, they could probably come close with a visit to the AH. Conversely, a good player who plays a lot and researchs what gear to get could have like 8k HP and 800 spell damage. An outstanding player could have either 10k HP/800 spell damage or 8k HP/1k spell damage, depending on which stat he wanted to stack. Not a huge difference IMO.

a resto druid isn't going to want spell damage gear (unless it has +healing also).

It does.

the fact that "Guild PWNZOR" had naxx on farm status, and walked into the arena with all purple pixels is too bad for Joe the Warrior, who really is a better player, but just never had the guild to back him up.

Naxx gear provides little advantage in arenas; it has no stamina.
The new raiding content offers marginal improvements over the "base" BC gear, but TBH most arena-oriented upgrades I see are from players either getting exhalted with a particular faction or getting their crafting professions up to 375 and crafting BoPs; neither requires a strong guild to do.

 

[mven]

The problem is you are looking at the gear as it is NOW. High end gear was fine when the game was new too. It wasn't ridiculously overpowered in PVP. Now that the expansion has been out a while and raiding guilds are starting to want the next new thing to grind on you will start to see the gap widen all over again. *shrug*

 

[Arlochan]

I agree that you get better with more in-game experince but it also means that if you have been playing a warrior in WoW and then you decide to buy a lvl 70 hunter you probaly with suck until u can find ur advantages and master the diffrent playing style.

 

[mven]

How do you suck at playing a hunter? I mean really...

 

[Arlochan]

How do you suck at playing a hunter? I mean really...

rofl ur right