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Question - premium plugins VS KA11 (1 Viewer)

ChatWithThisName

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Oh for sure, on LIVE or any of the higher content it is absolutely amazing. I've message you a few times to figure out the secrets of the snappy engages and a few other things. I would recommend this to anyone who is considering using this in live applications.

On TLP (Rizlona) for group content, perfectly fine. However if you start to get into raiding (By yourself or with others), many users prefer Entropy, Modbots, Mule/Kiss Assist as it has far more customizability than CWTN plugins.

To answer you CWTN - there isn't really a need to get defensive or try to disprove an opinion. Rizlona constant chats with almost anyone who will listen about what to use on it, since every macro/program has its good and bad. Taking a sliver of the CWTN pie - the rogue world - many users use it just for clearing trash, or in group content, however in raids have noticed that they are out of end, out of cooldowns, and pretty much just sitting there doing backstabs without any of the cools on boss fights. When I 30-box, I don't usually look at my rogue, however anytime I was using the plugin I noticed very much the same - my rogue would generally be doing half the damage of my mages, wizards, rangers and monks. I used it for a month before reverting to Kiss Assist as there was far more functionality and performs alot better in doing so. There's alot of chatter and quite frankily, consensus seems to be that CWTN is great on the LIVE side of things.
It's not about being defensive. If you tell people that "on TLP the plugins aren't needed and often problematic" as if you're referring to the whole of the available plugins but you only have a license to use the one class, then it's reasonable for me to question the experience, and it's useful information for a reader to know that you aren't actually using all the plugins and only using one class. If it's based on "chatter" from other users, then I encourage those users to voice their opinions and bring their complaints to the discussion for the individual plugins they have licenses to use. If I'm not aware of user issues then I can't try to accommodate those issues.

With all of that said, I hear what you're saying about rogues. In reference to the complaint of being out of endurance all the time, it's because they use endurance when they do things and there isn't a way to improve endurance regen. The plugins aren't magical and can't produce endurance out of thin air. If you're low on endurance it may be time to take a med break. Later in the game you'll be able to access the breather line and that will enable you to essentially stay in endurance without needing a med break. But this isn't a short coming of the plugins, this is a short coming of the class itself.

The plugins aren't kissassist, or modbot etc. So yes, they do not work the same way and 100% lack the customization of those options. But it also means you don't have to keep an INI updated etc as you level up. You don't need to understand conditions to operate the character at a higher level, such as having to setup your own burn conditions for specific abilities to tell the plugin to do things in a certain order etc. I mention that in my original post https://www.redguides.com/community/threads/premium-plugins-vs-ka11.73208/post-422615

I do have characters on Rizlona. I have them specifically for testing for the TLP's, however it's not my primary server. I do focus live heavily, but if a user has an issue on Rizlona or any other non-truebox TLP then they are 100% welcome to voice those issues in the discussion thread so that we can discuss the ways either around the issue they are facing with existing settings, or by implementing more settings that allow for the issue to be resolved without adding too much fluff to the plugins. Someone had an issue with rogue on TLP for example and we added ExeIsBurn checkbox, which 100% is designed for lower level/TLP characters to keep them from using up all their abilities that is considered a "burn" at that stage of the game. So if you have more suggestions, 100% swing by the discussion thread for rogue and post your issue, get your friends to post as well since reproduction of issues and collaboration from other users of the software are what get the attention needed to make issues a priority to fix. We do try to handle issues as they come in. When someone posts an issue we make sure to load up the character and try to reproduce the issue, and if we're able to reproduce it we make adjustments that typically go out the following patch.

Also as Sic mentioned, we don't advertise the plugins beyond announcing that we've posted an open beta for a new plugin, or posting updates for the changes made to the plugins. Everything else is word of mouth, so it's in our best interest to address issues as they are presented or people will stop suggesting it to others. So when someone suggested AGAINST using the plugins, it's only natural that I investigate why it is they are saying the things they are saying so that if there is an issue that can be accommodated that it can be addressed and we can move forward with the recommending it to other people thing again. :-)
 
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It's not about being defensive. If you tell people that "on TLP the plugins aren't needed and often problematic" as if you're referring to the whole of the available plugins but you only have a license to use the one class, then it's reasonable for me to question the experience, and it's useful information for a reader to know that you aren't actually using all the plugins and only using one class. If it's based on "chatter" from other users, then I encourage those users to voice their opinions and bring their complaints to the discussion for the individual plugins they have licenses to use. If I'm not aware of user issues then I can't try to accommodate those issues.

With all of that said, I hear what you're saying about rogues. In reference to the complaint of being out of endurance all the time, it's because they use endurance when they do things and there isn't a way to improve endurance regen. The plugins aren't magical and can't produce endurance out of thin air. If you're low on endurance it may be time to take a med break. Later in the game you'll be able to access the breather line and that will enable you to essentially stay in endurance without needing a med break. But this isn't a short coming of the plugins, this is a short coming of the class itself.

The plugins aren't kissassist, or modbot etc. So yes, they do not work the same way and 100% lack the customization of those options. But it also means you don't have to keep an INI updated etc as you level up. You don't need to understand conditions to operate the character at a higher level, such as having to setup your own burn conditions for specific abilities to tell the plugin to do things in a certain order etc. I mention that in my original post https://www.redguides.com/community/threads/premium-plugins-vs-ka11.73208/post-422615

I do have characters on Rizlona. I have them specifically for testing for the TLP's, however it's not my primary server. I do focus live heavily, but if a user has an issue on Rizlona or any other non-truebox TLP then they are 100% welcome to voice those issues in the discussion thread so that we can discuss the ways either around the issue they are facing with existing settings, or by implementing more settings that allow for the issue to be resolved without adding too much fluff to the plugins. Someone had an issue with rogue on TLP for example and we added ExeIsBurn checkbox, which 100% is designed for lower level/TLP characters to keep them from using up all their abilities that is considered a "burn" at that stage of the game. So if you have more suggestions, 100% swing by the discussion thread for rogue and post your issue, get your friends to post as well since reproduction of issues and collaboration from other users of the software are what get the attention needed to make issues a priority to fix. We do try to handle issues as they come in. When someone posts an issue we make sure to load up the character and try to reproduce the issue, and if we're able to reproduce it we make adjustments that typically go out the following patch.

Also as Sic mentioned, we don't advertise the plugins beyond announcing that we've posted an open beta for a new plugin, or posting updates for the changes made to the plugins. Everything else is word of mouth, so it's in our best interest to address issues as they are presented or people will stop suggesting it to others. So when someone suggested AGAINST using the plugins, it's only natural that I investigate why it is they are saying the things they are saying so that if there is an issue that can be accommodated that it can be addressed and we can move forward with the recommending it to other people thing again. :-)
I absolutely appreciate this response. My confidence in CWTN and the respective plugins hasn't wavered - they are great. I am also glad to hear that you are willing to work with people's concerns or issues to implement changes; I can't disagree with the shortcomings of the class, as it brings another layer to code against until endurance regen is thing. I will encourage others to speak out and post on the forums. What is the best method to make suggestions - I oft hear from people that suggestions aren't taken nicely, and are often turned away as it's seen as a "Customization" - maybe if I directed these with issues to the right away it may help in collaboration.
 

ChatWithThisName

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I absolutely appreciate this response. My confidence in CWTN and the respective plugins hasn't wavered - they are great. I am also glad to hear that you are willing to work with people's concerns or issues to implement changes; I can't disagree with the shortcomings of the class, as it brings another layer to code against until endurance regen is thing. I will encourage others to speak out and post on the forums. What is the best method to make suggestions - I oft hear from people that suggestions aren't taken nicely, and are often turned away as it's seen as a "Customization" - maybe if I directed these with issues to the right away it may help in collaboration.
The plugins are absolutely intended to be "turn on and forget" however, early game is odd. There wasn't a lot of efficient "lines" of abilities and was in general all over the place. Someone may suggest one thing, and we may shoot down their idea, but implement another method of handling the issue. If at all possible I want things to be automatically detected, and adjusted for on the fly without the user needing to hit a special checkbox so that things continue to "just work". So while it may seem like a simple checkbox would correct an issue, I would actually prefer to handle the situation without a checkbox or something that the user needs to customize. If it wasn't for all the shenanigans early levels of every class I'd literally have every plugin done and released. I use plugins for all 16 classes because they're all over 85. But we take a TON of extra time trying to mitigate issues with lower level characters so that they do work with TLP's and at every level on live as well. (Yes, even the infamous bard). Speaking of bard. That's probably one of the more annoying classes to handle because everything about a bard at lower levels is special in it's own way.

With that said, it's possible you post an issue, and we either suggest a way around the obstacle you're faced with, or we don't like the idea and don't feel that it's something necessary for the majority of users and adding something special just because one user would like it to do a thing for a special situation that only comes up for one fight in one expansion. Regarding raiding is specifically where we usually end up saying "Sorry, we don't have plans to implement a feature like that" because in most cases the suggestions fit the criteria for some special use case that can be handled in another way with another plugin/macro/event/etc and as useful as it may appear to be for the class plugins to have all the special situations coded directly into them, it's also a lot of work with limited use cases. So keep in mind that making the suggestion does not mean the suggestion will be implemented. Any issues reported will be investigated and if the issue can be reproduced we will go out of our way to fix the issue if it's within our abilities to do so.

Also, I don't always respond personally to a post, but me and Sic discuss every issue brought up. If he responds that we're not implementing something, then we've actually either already discussed it in the past, or we discussed it when the issue was brought up before the response was made. So if Sic responds then coming to me will result in the same response.
 
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I have personally used CWTN plugins in raid form on live (i wont play TLP as its ancient and past its time, so is just a money grab) and have never had a issue with any of them in raid. i set them for raid, and for what i want them doing in the raid them put them where i want them and let them roll. Ive had war MT a TBL and a ROS raid. Tried a TOV but my war wasnt geared good enough for it at the time. I use the SK to OT/MA alot
 

Knightly

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I think tone plays a large part in this. I read your post as defensive as well. And, although reading it that way does skew my bias for this statement, I feel it’s still true: I don’t think it’s a minority opinion that you both often come off as defensive for anything perceived as criticism (constructive or otherwise). However, I also don’t think that’s particularly intentional. You can look at the class threads to see people often cowering and apologizing when asking questions which is generally a sign of this, and I see you fall to the same method you used above which basically boils down to: “You’re not qualified to make that statement and here’s the data as to why.” Regardless of whether the statement is correct or incorrect, it makes you harder to approach.

I understand where you’re coming from, you want to combat misinformation about your plugins. And, as you said, you can’t fix a problem you don’t know about. But tone plays a large part in eliciting that feedback in a way that people don’t feel like they need to grovel in order to make a request.

All of that said, the primary issue here is probably that low levels on TLPs do require a level of customization. It’s not the same as those classes on Live at low levels because mechanics, while based on Live, aren’t the same on TLPs. So you have multiple scenarios to account for if you’re trying to solve in that niche. You can’t, for example, take a level 65 character on Live, tune it, and just remove the missing spells from the different eras to end up with a good build for TLP. The endurance conversation is a perfect example of this: A player makes decisions to conserve when conservation is required. That’s not due to a shortcoming of the class or the gear (although gear will certainly help you overcome the need for that) it’s that things like out of combat regen come in later eras that make conservation less needed or even unnecessary. There are tons of fundamental differences on TLP even at overlapping levels with Live.

Further compounding that is that the meta of the game and classes changes as expansions are released. Some of this does have to do with AAs and spells, which can be accounted for as CWTN does by checking what is missing. But some of it is also how classes interact with each other, which is harder to adapt to. So it ends up being programming for (right now 5) different scenarios that all play differently: Live regular play, Low Level Live, Low Level TLP, TLP as it approaches Live, and to a lesser extent Emu.

Of course, the more people say “Hey, this doesn’t work quite right on TLP” the more likely it is to get fixed. I think a big issue though is the majority of people using the CWTN plugins don’t know what or why it doesn’t quite work right (just that something is going on) so it becomes an exercise in articulation that becomes difficult. And, of course, being on the receiving end of that is frustrating because you don’t even know where to look when something is that vague.

None of that is to say that it can’t be fixed, just adding some perspective for everyone.
 
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Doing support for this kind of work for so many varied people is challenging. Doing it with a smile is even harder. Overall I'm impressed with everyone here.
 
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I currently use Chats Cleric, Eskay, Zerker, and Enc. I love all of them even though I rarely play my SK. I am planning on getting Bst once i get him to 115. I personally didn't like the shaman one, I found the KA version that I had worked better for me. No point in paying $20 to have more OH Sh*t healing moments. I think that is why I now play with an out of group cleric for normal stuff. I tried the mage out when it was being tested. I tried to run 4 mages, an enc and clr group but I was having issues with assisting since there was no tank and it felt clunky so I stopped playing that group and really haven't play my mages since so no point buying that one. Overall though I must say Chat made a useful ability and polished it and made it better so he deserves to get some money for his work.
 

ChatWithThisName

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I currently use Chats Cleric, Eskay, Zerker, and Enc. I love all of them even though I rarely play my SK. I am planning on getting Bst once i get him to 115. I personally didn't like the shaman one, I found the KA version that I had worked better for me. No point in paying $20 to have more OH Sh*t healing moments. I think that is why I now play with an out of group cleric for normal stuff. I tried the mage out when it was being tested. I tried to run 4 mages, an enc and clr group but I was having issues with assisting since there was no tank and it felt clunky so I stopped playing that group and really haven't play my mages since so no point buying that one. Overall though I must say Chat made a useful ability and polished it and made it better so he deserves to get some money for his work.
We later added support to make the mage the MA and group members considered their pet the MA instead of the character. Have you tried it since that change was made? If not, it's available on test if you want to give it another spin and see if the alteration would change the way you feel about mage.
 

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