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Question - Group size (1 Viewer)

Joined
Oct 25, 2021
RedCents
140¢
Afternoon all - first and foremost i get that this will be a pretty subjective question, but what have you found to be the most ideal group size for boxing? I've tried 2,3,4 and 6 man team compositions and i seem to get stuck with fights that are pretty long with 4 and 6 man groups around level 50-ish. I've tried using merc healer and tank in a couple groups and merc healer and DPS and merc tank and dps (for my cleric group) and i cant seem to find the sweet spot. Also, i'm on test so when i work my SK group, the kissassist ini's i've tried and cwtn plugin both seem to be major mana dumps requiring longer med times (even with bard or chanter or both in group). Based on what i've written, am i doing something wrong? Gear wise i'm working with level appropriate defiant gear or random weapons i find in bazaar for my range.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
RedCents
1,157¢
Afternoon all - first and foremost i get that this will be a pretty subjective question, but what have you found to be the most ideal group size for boxing? I've tried 2,3,4 and 6 man team compositions and i seem to get stuck with fights that are pretty long with 4 and 6 man groups around level 50-ish. I've tried using merc healer and tank in a couple groups and merc healer and DPS and merc tank and dps (for my cleric group) and i cant seem to find the sweet spot. Also, i'm on test so when i work my SK group, the kissassist ini's i've tried and cwtn plugin both seem to be major mana dumps requiring longer med times (even with bard or chanter or both in group). Based on what i've written, am i doing something wrong? Gear wise i'm working with level appropriate defiant gear or random weapons i find in bazaar for my range.

First and foremost, I would use 6 player toons, 0 mercs... even if they player toons are f2play accounts, they are going to be better than Mercs; that said, you gotta do what works for you, if you're invested in RG MQ2 already, you might as well do 6; however, if it's too much then find a trinity type setup that accommodates mercs best (i.e. SK sham bard; 1x merc healer , 2x merc melee OR 3x merc Melee if you're comfortable solo healing on the shaman)...

I havent used CWTN plugins at all outside what KissAssist Vanilla offers; that said, I found I learn a lot by simply researching INIs , then modifying my own based on what I learn from the research , truly have learned a lot, but it can be time consuming... so purchasing additional plugins might be worth it to you...


Just my two red:rcents.

[HINT: 🐻 You too can help prevent forum fires by also "red:rcenting" (click the :rc icon to the right ---->)
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
RedCents
80¢
Most of them are designed around higher levels. For RGMercs it is usually suggested that you make your mode TLP. For CWTN plugins, you should probably turn off some options to reduce mana use.

This situation doesn't really get better till around 80 with HoT gear.
 

Many_Whelps

WoW was the first MMO
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
RedCents
8,445¢
Old EQ (level 50ish, like you mention) is all about fighting a few mobs and then stopping to med before continuing. The ratio of mana cost on spells to your available mana pool at that level dictates that you can't sustain casting and fighting full time without a break. The alternative is that you stop casting during fights. But then fights are going to last much longer meaning that you end up taking about the same amount of time as if you were to dump mana and med after the fight.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
RedCents
1,157¢
Old EQ (level 50ish, like you mention) is all about fighting a few mobs and then stopping to med before continuing. The ratio of mana cost on spells to your available mana pool at that level dictates that you can't sustain casting and fighting full time without a break. The alternative is that you stop casting during fights. But then fights are going to last much longer meaning that you end up taking about the same amount of time as if you were to dump mana and med after the fight.
However, if you learn the INI a bit, you CAN tell your group to take breaks, if you haven't already...

For example...

[General]
Role=TankPuller
MedOn=1
MedStart=20
MedStop=97
MedCombat=0 (off) / 1 (on)
GroupWatchOn=1 (entire group)
GroupWatchCheck=FALSE (unless you plan on using conditions)

[General]
Role=Assist
MedOn=1
MedStart=20
MedStop=97
MedCombat=0 (off) / 1 (on)
GroupWatchOn=0
GroupWatchCheck=FALSE (unless you plan on using conditions)

This is very basic, but hopefully it will encourage you to dig a bit more and/or explore all that the INIs can do :)


Just my two red:rcents.

[HINT: 🐻 You too can help prevent forum fires by also "red:rcenting" (click the :rc icon to the right ---->)
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2021
RedCents
140¢
Thanks for the insights folks. Objectively, i am doing it wrong, as i'm putting too much faith in the mercs abilities to keep group alive and not enough faith in myself as a player and my own ability to heal, tank, dps, etc. I'll try a few variations of my teams and see which gives me better luck in the xp/killing department. Also, thanks for the tip on modifying the ini.'s, i actually have done some tweaking like adding Snare instead of X on my druid or Root on my wizzy vs. Y, as well as modifying med percent and what not. I'll keep experimenting and reading this forum -- worst case scenario i re-roll some toons and try again :)
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2022
RedCents
926¢
If you are on Test, design your groups around CWTN plugins. ENC or BRD w/ RGMercs for ease of use.

If you choose an all-CWTN route - I suggest PAL or SHD with CLR, ENC, BST, MAG, NEC. I am currently running the same group on Live with SHD, taking my time though, and works really well by running the Healer/CC role check for pulling/hunting.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
RedCents
1,175¢
Thanks for the insights folks. Objectively, i am doing it wrong, as i'm putting too much faith in the mercs abilities to keep group alive and not enough faith in myself as a player and my own ability to heal, tank, dps, etc. I'll try a few variations of my teams and see which gives me better luck in the xp/killing department. Also, thanks for the tip on modifying the ini.'s, i actually have done some tweaking like adding Snare instead of X on my druid or Root on my wizzy vs. Y, as well as modifying med percent and what not. I'll keep experimenting and reading this forum -- worst case scenario i re-roll some toons and try again :)
The rule is always to play what you want as long as you're having fun, but it doesn't sound like your having a lot of fun right now. So I'll just give a few thoughts on class lineup.

I see that you mention both wizzy and druid. I don't want to set off a class war, but both of those classes are really weak in the early game. They are super mana dependent in an era where mana regen sucks. They get better later, but they are a total drag on exp groups at your level.

Melee classes really excel in the low levels because they don't use a lot of endurance. They can basically fight forever and put out consistent dps fight after fight. Rogues and monks are excellent choices because all they need are decent weapons.

I prefer bards over enchanters at low levels for the same reasons. Even though they don't get an AoE mez, nothing they use at this level costs any mana, so they can do it forever. They also match up really well with melee toons because of haste and overhaste, which you'll start getting in your 50s. They also bring some good pulling tools which you sometimes need at lower levels (at higher levels you just pull everything and let the CC sort it out).

SKs and Paladins are really mana dependent early game, but they get amazing later in the game. You could switch the SK for a warrior, but warriors have terrible aggro at the low level, so you're trading one thing for another. I'd say just play whatever you want for the tank. There really isn't a perfect answer, but all three are viable.

Clerics are really the only option for heals at this level. But the only efficient way to heal at the low level is with complete heal. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to really automate a 10 second heal. What I do at the low level is run mq2cleric in paused mode. I have hotkeys to cast complete on my tank and the highest group heal when needed. This lets me control it's mana usage during xp runs. On boss fights or whenever shit hits the fan, I just unpause the plugin and let it blow it's mana because I know it will keep everyone alive.

Finally, mercs are really bad. You can make an argument for using a tank merc early game because they can carry a group, but the healer and dps mercs are really bad and only get worse as you level up. I'd just ditch those mercs altogether and figure out what group works for you.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
RedCents
522¢
I would like to chime in on the merc opinions here.

Mercs are like dogs, they will give you devotion, attention, support and I have even seen an emote from the merc that you pulled to many mobs and that it doesn't look good.

The debate over them being good or not I think is down to how players use them.

Others say use the tank merc until level 60 or so - I have never used a tank merc at low levels. All my characters get healer mercs and then they are forced to learn how to fight themselves, cast spells, whatever. Even my clerics learn to fight.

They can try out a tank merc around level 70.

Setting roles, assists etc. or blocking healing spells so the merc heals better. Nope never use them. They are either balanced if a healer or aggressive if the tank or support dps or on passive. I don't use the other options of efficient or reactive. F2P do not get a choice on this as aggressive or passive are the only choices. I sometimes will set myself as puller so my healer doesn't follow me around but usually is no need to.

I have 2 main paid accounts and one has a healer merc (my ranger) - the other has a tank merc (my enchanter). I have some other accounts that are paid for randomly but these are the main ones. While my characters are level 120 I am not yet playing in the current expansion because I am a slow player. But the mercs are doing fine with groups, missions and named.

So bottom line, they are not all bad at high levels, depending on how you play.
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
RedCents
1,430¢
If your long term goal is to do progression and keep up with current content then ditch the mercs. They will make life very difficult eventually. You will find yourself trying 2 cleric mercs just to maybe survive a really slow, long fight. Everything will be really slow compared to FTP toons. I ran 3 for a long time and will never do it again.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
RedCents
1,157¢
If your long term goal is to do progression and keep up with current content then ditch the mercs. They will make life very difficult eventually. You will find yourself trying 2 cleric mercs just to maybe survive a really slow, long fight. Everything will be really slow compared to FTP toons. I ran 3 for a long time and will never do it again.

I always tell my kids, try everything once! If you want to really feel the difference try out the mercs, then create some f2play toons of those same classes... it's truly crazy how big the gap is in my humble opinion! :)


Just my two red:rcents.

[HINT: 🐻 You too can help prevent forum fires by also "red:rcenting" (click the :rc icon to the right ---->)
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2021
RedCents
140¢
Here's what i've been trying out this past weekend -- SK, Mag, Bard, Chanter, Cleric and Necro (had to level her up a bit with this group). I chose this based off another suggestion earlier in the thread where the other poster used BST (i couldn't use my BST, as it's same account as cleric). I was able to get the group to 71 (necro 65) but i had a ranger on the same account as bard and just wanted the extra DPS. Swapped out Bard for Ranger from 67-71 and kills were faster, downtime seemed a bit less and all and all i seem to be finding a good rhythm. I am considering swapping chanter bard every few levels to keep bard up but so far i think i found a good group with chars i like. I may try swapping Mag for Wizzie or Mag for Zerker for a level or two but this will be primarily to keep everyone close enough in level ranges.

Edit: Still working on mana management for Mage now, as she's burning all her mana on about 5 mobs before medding but doing better than i was. Also decided to use ini.'s vs. cwtn plugins for all besides the SK and that seems to be a bit better on the mana front too for now.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
RedCents
1,430¢
FTP mercs are especially terrible. They also like to run away if you get too many mobs in camp. That means you might need 3 subbed accounts if you go that route. That makes the gap even larger. I think it was around lvl 90 where I gave up on mercs. I noticed how bad they were around 80 and I had 3 subbed accounts.
 

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