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Question - Mage vs. BST DPS (1 Viewer)

Sodpoodle

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Nov 5, 2014
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Title says it all. Which would be better DPS assuming equally geared(t1 TDS group, potentially raid weps on bst)? Mage would be silver for sure after maxxing AA, assume bst being mostly silver. Bard support, no ench. Weighing the pros/cons of each class it has pretty much came down to overall personal DPS as the deciding factor. In general rains should be an option for the mage.
 
Title says it all. Which would be better DPS assuming equally geared(t1 TDS group, potentially raid weps on bst)? Mage would be silver for sure after maxxing AA, assume bst being mostly silver. Bard support, no ench. Weighing the pros/cons of each class it has pretty much came down to overall personal DPS as the deciding factor. In general rains should be an option for the mage.

On a silver account I think a mage will take the win on this one. They need less AAs to be highly effective and their spells aren't affected by the lack of gold gear nearly as bad as a BST would be affected by it.
 
Been using bard for slows, and added an old sham I had. Kind of came down to what a BST would add in personal dps + adps for another melee or a mage and their dps + coth. Sounds like mage is the clear winner though. Plus as Pussyfoot mentioned in another thread it would look less suspicious botting a caster vs. melee when I am at the keyboard.
 
sorry but you guys are wrong. Unless you can cast rain spells on a mage they're pretty shitty dps. better question is do you have a bard or enc for support because if you don't have a bard dont bother with a bst.
 
Im sorry but i know beastdaddy and he is by far a better dps then a mage. Mages are ok dps but if u want solo strength over duration get a beast u get slows dd spells heals buffs fero ecf.... my 100 11k aa beasty in rof raid gear can solo really well and can tank pretty damn good and my pet can off tank in group situations where if your a mage and your tank dies you cant tank 1 while your pet off tanks i say beasty all way


And beasty get paragon where mages just got mod rods and mana reserve that u can only cast below a certain %
 
Rain is more efficient......3 waves of hits per cast (this is true with wizard too for longer fights)......hence better dps but this will only parse well on longer fights. If you're full grp, and your fights are less than 45s, you are not casting rains.....you're probably trying to spam searing sands, fickle, shock, and maybe throw in blot if you got others on cooldown. If you're not running into mana issues and fights are fast, you're not going to get the advantage of the ae nukes.

A 100 mage, with bare autogrants is pretty crappy dps but then so is a bst. wannabe says his bst in rof RAID gear and 11k aa's can solo well........a mage in grp gear with just autogrant aa's can solo well so you see how less dependant the mage is for gear.

If we're comparing apples to apples, mage beats bst in dps. At max 105, max aa, equally geared, my bst almost approaches the mage...almost but still shy a bit.
 
Rain is more efficient......3 waves of hits per cast (this is true with wizard too for longer fights)......hence better dps but this will only parse well on longer fights. If you're full grp, and your fights are less than 45s, you are not casting rains.....you're probably trying to spam searing sands, fickle, shock, and maybe throw in blot if you got others on cooldown. If you're not running into mana issues and fights are fast, you're not going to get the advantage of the ae nukes.

A 100 mage, with bare autogrants is pretty crappy dps but then so is a bst. wannabe says his bst in rof RAID gear and 11k aa's can solo well........a mage in grp gear with just autogrant aa's can solo well so you see how less dependant the mage is for gear.

If we're comparing apples to apples, mage beats bst in dps. At max 105, max aa, equally geared, my bst almost approaches the mage...almost but still shy a bit.

Ive never seen a raid geared mage come close to one beastlord in my guild on burns and i am in one of the top 5 in game. Maybe so mages are less dependant but alot less utilized imo
 
Haha, not derail the derail but end game real player dps is not terribly applicable in the KISS world. If mobs need to last over 45 seconds to make rains worthwhile(I would assume more running kiss since it's a little slow sometimes). That kind of eliminates rains usage for my particular situation. Does seem like my 100 gimp mage is less than stellar dps(ench support) mostly he's there in case the gimp tank goes down to save from a wipe. I have no real experience with bsts, but would the loss of augs/prestige gear hurt bst dps that bad in the group game?
 
Because I forgot to say them? ;) I think I meant spear instead of shock tbh

And yes, augs/prestige would affect a melee immensely. Mage is one of the few classes that is viable as silver and maybe even f2p (though their dps would be pretty bad).

I think mage has better burns than bsts to be honest in the raid game. You must have some slacker mages.

I've attached last 44 fights from brother island.

Top mage has mixture of TDS grp t2 gear, EM XVI focus, almsot max aa, only 1 spell dmg aug
Second mage has 7465 aa, half TDS grp t2 gear, cotf t1 grp, and pretty much naked on non vis. EM XI focus, no additional spell dmg aug
Bst is TDS t2 grp with some rest cotf t2 grp, EM XI focus. Only 5 augs.

Seems the top mage died once in those 44 fights, hence the special. the blank class is a caster on burn.

Fights lasting 24-33s

Both mages parse better than BST. I can get BST higher up by removing heals from KA (it actually is a pretty significant drop in dps when heals are enabled....I forget exact number but it wasn't pretty). Chanter is not in the grp so not benefiting from IOG/chromatic haze etc.
 

Attachments

  • parse.jpg
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I've done parses with max AA bst and mages both in raid gear and without rains the bst beats them in dps* and has no mana issues at all. maybe im doing something wrong but I am always out of mana on my mage.


- - - Updated - - -

I've done parses with max AA bst and mages both in raid gear and without rains the bst beats them in dps* and has no mana issues at all. maybe im doing something wrong but I am always out of mana on my mage.

*if you have no bard the bst loses to the mage.

Also what do you guys mean by good dps ? For me good dps is 35k+ over 1k mobs at over 100 mobs an hr without running out of mana.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have a bard Calaxa ? If not that is why your bst is not sustaining over 20k. Here is my bst ini it sustains 40k with a bst using raid weapons and EM20. key for the bst is the AE section if you pull 3-5 mobs he can burn 150k +

Rich (BB code):
[General]
KissAssistVer=8.1.0
Role=Assist
CampRadius=30
CampRadiusExceed=400
ReturnToCamp=0
ChaseAssist=0
ChaseDistance=20
MedOn=0
MedStart=90
MedCombat=0
LootOn=0
RezAcceptOn=0
AcceptInvitesOn=1
GroupWatchOn=0
EQBCOn=0
IRCOn=0
MiscGem=11
HoTTOn=0
CampfireOn=0
[Buffs]
BuffsOn=1
Buffs1=Paragon of Spirit|Mana|75
Buffs2=NULL
Buffs3=Rest|End|20
Buffs4=Shared Merciless Ferocity|MA
Buffs5=Natural Affiliation
Buffs6=Stormblood's Unity|Dual|Spiritual Vivification
Buffs7=Consumption of Spirit|Mana|80|50
Buffs8=Latent Etheric Tunic of the Fang|Mana|80
Buffs9=Summoned: Large Modulation Shard|Mana|75
Buffs10=NULL
Buffs11=NULL
Buffs12=NULL
Buffs13=NULL
Buffs14=NULL
Buffs15=NULL
Buffs16=NULL
Buffs17=NULL
Buffs18=NULL
Buffs19=NULL
Buffs20=NULL
RebuffOn=1
ChecKBuffsTimer=20
[Melee]
AssistAt=98
MeleeOn=1
FaceMobOn=1
MeleeDistance=75
StickHow=loose
AutoFireOn=0
[GoM]
GoMSHelp=Format - Spell|Target, MA Me or Mob, i.e. Rampaging Servant Rk. II|Mob
GoMSpell=Gift of Mana Spell
GoMSpell1=Gift of Mana Spell
GoMSpell2=Gift of Mana Spell
[AE]
AEOn=1
AERadius=40
AE1=Ruaabri's Fury|3|Mob
AE2=Savage Rage|3|Mob
AE3=Group Bestial Alignment|3|Mob
AE4=Fundament: Third Spire of the Savage lord|3|Mob
AE5=Frenzy Of Spirit|3|Mob
AE6=Taste of Blood|3|Mob
AE7=Attack of the Warders|3|Mob
AE8=Bestial Bloodrage|3|Mob
AE9=Bloodlust|3|Mob
AE10=Frenzied Swipes|3|Mob
AE11=Bestial Alignment|3|Mob
AE12=NULL
AE13=NULL
AE14=NULL
AE15=NULL
[DPS]
DPSOn=1
DPSSkip=10
DPSInterval=2
DPS1=NULL
DPS2=Krenk's Feralgia|98
DPS3=Visoracius's Maelstrom|90
DPS4=Kreigs Bite|90
DPS5=Frozen Miasma|90
DPS6=Kromtus Lance|90
DPS7=Maul|98
DPS8=NULL
DPS9=NULL
DPS10=NULL
DPS11=NULL
DPS12=NULL
DPS13=NULL
DPS14=NULL
DPS15=NULL
[Aggro]
AggroOn=0
Aggro1=NULL
Aggro2=NULL
Aggro3=NULL
Aggro4=NULL
Aggro5=NULL
[Heals]
Help=Format Spell|% to heal at i.e. Devout Light Rk. II|50
HealsOn=1
Heals1=Sabhattin's Mending|35|MA
Heals2=Sabhattin's Mending|55|!MA
Heals3=NULL
Heals4=NULL
Heals5=NULL
XTarHeal=0
Heals6=NULL
Heals7=NULL
Heals8=NULL
Heals9=NULL
Heals10=NULL
[Cures]
CuresOn=0
Cures1=NULL
Cures2=NULL
Cures3=NULL
[Pet] 
PetOn=1
PetSpell=Spirit of Avalit
PetFocus=Bonespire Earring|leftear
PetShrinkOn=1
PetShrinkSpell=Bonespire Earring
PetBuffsOn=1
PetBuffs1=Extraordinary Velocity
PetBuffs2=Spirit of Visoracius
PetBuffs3=Hobble of Spirits
PetBuffs4=NULL
PetBuffs5=Sekmoset's Aggression
PetBuffs6=Mending Warder
PetBuffs7=NULL
PetBuffs8=NULL
PetToysGave=                                                                                                                                                                                                
PetBreakMezSpell=NULL
PetRampPullWait=0
PetSuspend=0
PetCombatOn=outer
[Burn]
BurnText=Decepticons Attack
Burn1=NULL
Burn2=NULL
Burn3=NULL
Burn4=NULL
Burn5=NULL
Burn6=NULL
BurnAllNamed=0
Burn7=NULL
Burn8=NULL
Burn9=NULL
Burn10=NULL
Burn11=NULL
Burn12=NULL
Burn13=NULL
Burn14=NULL
Burn15=NULL
[Pull]
PullWith=Melee
MaxRadius=350
MaxZRange=50
PullWait=0
PullRoleToggle=0
ChainPull=0
ChainPullHP=90
ChainPullPause=30|2
[AFKTools]
AFKHelp=AFKGMAction=0 Off, 1 Pause Macro, 2 End Macro, 3 Unload MQ2, 4 Quit Game
AFKToolsOn=0
AFKGMAction=1
AFKPCRadius=150
CampOnDeath=0
ClickBacktoCamp=0
[Merc]
Help=To use: Turn off Auto Assist in Manage Mercenary Window
MercOn=0
MercAssistAt=92
[SpellSet]
LoadSpellSet=0
SpellSetName=KissAssist
 
I get 30k sustained with bard but that's cheating...then I can add bard on mage and get a better sustained too. You guys are also using raid as a comparison which favors the melee over the caster.

Seems the top mage in the parse above actually died during the 45 fights I showed. Also the blank class is a caster merc on burn. Without raid gear, mage is higher than bst for sure. If bst can get some gear, it becomes closer but mage still wins out I think.

To be honest, I can skew my parses but I'm trying to give a fair comparison with both in grp and not an optimzied scenario that favors one over the other. Hell, I can show you parses of my grp ranger doing 40k-50kish sustained but let's be realistic....I like rangers sorta but they're not topping the bst/mage on sustained.

As for mage mana issue, yes it's quite a problem initially with KA unless you start tweaking it heavily. When I first started using KA with my mage, I kept thinking, god mages suck...what is the fuss. Then I thought about how I would play them manually vs automated and adjustments had to be made. Also, the speed of the fights had to be taken into account. My dps was horrid trying a rain (which in non KA world, most mages use). One rain, fight is already over and my dps looks worse than a warrior. Hence, going to fast nukes but not mana efficient. So, I moved force of elements, host of elements, servant of ro, into holies, added mod rods, gather magnitude, mana reserve, water form (if cant be mounted) into KA buffs, added icebound sliver into dps lineup. Don't do relenetless servant (too mana intensive), use fickle as my go to nuke, try to keep a constant burn up (ie fire core, frenzied burnout, etc).

I tried to do the same with bst and they do come very close but mage beats the bst in grp gear. On burns, without outside help like a bard, chanter, sham, mage burn is a lot higher than bst. I think the synergy you get in a raid will depend on length of fight. I think the bst beats the mage in shorter burns (I dont know this for sure) but the mage beats the bst in big boss fights over 2-3 mins (someone has to verify this.....this is from reading forums so I dont know).

Realistically, I think for the OP, the mage is better and easier to get started. There's a reason they are probably the most played class. Mage in EQ is super ezmode.....I don't even recall the last time I even healed my pet


BTW, neither one of these is my "main" class. I've lots to learn about all classes.....I play all classes adequately but not optimally so anyone with good advice that contradicts anything I said, please share.
 
I'm with William, I was kind of hoping for 30kish+ sustained. Looks like my wiz merc is right around 20k with just bard support so the hassle of flagging/gearing/etc for a real toon need to be worth it. My SK is comparable dps to the bst above(I know, riposte helps) over 1k fights.


Ninja edit: I snickered a little at Calaxa's comment that using a bard is cheating considering the website we are on =)
 
I get 30k sustained with bard but that's cheating...then I can add bard on mage and get a better sustained too. You guys are also using raid as a comparison which favors the melee over the caster.

Seems the top mage in the parse above actually died during the 45 fights I showed. Also the blank class is a caster merc on burn. Without raid gear, mage is higher than bst for sure. If bst can get some gear, it becomes closer but mage still wins out I think.

I've never been able to sustain over 20k on a mage with a bard without using rain spells which I cannot use because I pull 4-5 at a time and you cannot tank 5 mobs at a time in tier 3.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with William, I was kind of hoping for 30kish+ sustained. Looks like my wiz merc is right around 20k with just bard support so the hassle of flagging/gearing/etc for a real toon need to be worth it. My SK is comparable dps to the bst above(I know, riposte helps) over 1k fights.

A real wizard even in group gear will sustain near 50k with a bard or enc. A bst or mage adds utility it helps the groups mana etc a bst can slow, spot heal and increase the groups dps with other buffs so the effect they have on the group is not seen in the parse.
 
Ninja edit: I snickered a little at Calaxa's comment that using a bard is cheating considering the website we are on =)

No I meant using a bard with a bst and not with the mage is cheating the stats
 
Yeah the main reason I started looking at bst vs. mage was utility + some dps. I had considered wiz but honestly coth/DS/tough pet or bst buffs/adps/dps out weighed what I assumed would be an extra 15-20k dps(I figured bst/mage should equal or out dps my monk which sustains 30k dps forever ish). Hah, 20 posts later and I am still no closer to a decision.
 
I pull too fast so mages will always have a mana issue for me. Even with a cleric using QM my mage is always low on mana he uses rods, gather, mana reserve etc still always out of mana and I don't even use swarm pet.
 
I'm running a mage and a bst in my lvl 100 group. My mage uses rains a lot. I'm finding that the BST provides comparable DPS when not getting adps boosts from the enchanter/druid.

When group black wolf pops, or enchanter uses chromatic haze, or iog, etc or named fight burns, the mage shoots way ahead. Going from 100k crits to 300k+ crits makes it no contest between the mag/bst. A lot of the BST power is sustained and adps, if you aren't running other melee you are losing out on that power compared to the mage.
 
With chromatic haze a beast will own anyone in burns and sustained. We just never get them in raids. /GU Combined: A phasmia vitali in 1579s, 1164094k @737235dps --- Wizard 96918k @61849dps --- Wizard2 92933k @59080dps --- Wizard3 87423k @55790dps --- Wizard4 84000k @53503dps --- Me(Beast) 62444k @41055dps --- Monk 53967k @34352dps --- Rogue 53858k @34283dps --- Wizard5 52431k @33567dps --- Zerker 49211k @32270dps --- Rogue2 47127k @30923dps. This run took super long due to working on ach's. No mages or any other melee beat me on combines ever. I pride myself though being better than most beasts in game period. Also worth a note I never MQ with my beast it is purely from my normal hotkeys. A beasts DPS is 50 to 60% spell casting so I know with a bard and chanter in my group I would crush everyone. My best burn on a raid mob in WK2 Rolth was 268k dps over 57s. Add a chanter for haze I would be much higher as it would double my casting dps. You double my casting dps ( Not to mention if you have haze on you crit every proc.) I would be where the top wizard is.
 
So I borrowed a buddies 100 gimp ish bst today, only thing I changed was adding the bst to group and my average dps on monk went up about 9k over ~300 fights. Basically just copy pasted a ini from here that doesn't even seem to fire ruuabri's. Is this a fluke or do bst really add that much? Bst himself was only doing like 15k dps.
 
Question - Mage vs. BST DPS

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